Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Rabhadh]

I'm gonna throw a curve ball and say these guys:

Katpatuka Asabara (Cappadocian Medium Cavalry)


"Why god why ohgod?" I think is what those gasps of extonishment mean, seeing as they carry overhand spears and are quite expensive, well its just the way I use them. As heavy cavarly killers.

I stand them behind my pontic heavy cavarly (Bodygaurds or anything with a xyston/kontos obviously) and after the charge is made on the enemy horse and both units are in melee, I alt-click with these fine persian men to hold the enemy in place with their deadly axes while the first unit pulls back to set up another charge. They're basically a support unit, and they don't leave the side of heavier cavarly unless the enemy is routing. Think of it like a tag team.

You see these fellas consistently hit above their weight, and when comming up against goddamned cataphracts and nomad bodygaurds they've saved my life (and the lives of some of Pontos' finest sons) by preventing those deadly units from being able to charge more than once. They're fast and don't tire easily too, so they're useful for countering medium horse archers too.

[Apázlinemjó]

I'm gonna throw a curve ball and say these guys:

Katpatuka Asabara (Cappadocian Medium Cavalry)


"Why god why ohgod?" I think is what those gasps of extonishment mean, seeing as they carry overhand spears and are quite expensive, well its just the way I use them. As heavy cavarly killers.

I stand them behind my pontic heavy cavarly (Bodygaurds or anything with a xyston/kontos obviously) and after the charge is made on the enemy horse and both units are in melee, I alt-click with these fine persian men to hold the enemy in place with their deadly axes while the first unit pulls back to set up another charge. They're basically a support unit, and they don't leave the side of heavier cavarly unless the enemy is routing. Think of it like a tag team.

You see these fellas consistently hit above their weight, and when comming up against goddamned cataphracts and nomad bodygaurds they've saved my life (and the lives of some of Pontos' finest sons) by preventing those deadly units from being able to charge more than once. They're fast and don't tire easily too, so they're useful for countering medium horse archers too.

Agreed, in the past, I disliked them as they were worthless as "hammer", but later in my pontic campaigns I found them as an excellent "anti-cataphract and such" units. It's sad that they are so expensive, because I can't really afford to buy them in MP.

[satalexton]

they -are- considerably armoured afterall... and their role's very limited...anti-catanks and chasing fleeing dogs...

[antisocialmunky]

Any cav can be used to charge in behind the heavies to help break by outnumbering.

[Apázlinemjó]

Any cav can be used to charge in behind the heavies to help break by outnumbering.

Yeah but they are quite deadly in melee with their ap axes, and while the heavies try to get away from these guys they can keep up in speed and chew them down.

they -are- considerably armoured afterall... and their role's very limited...anti-catanks and chasing fleeing dogs...

That's why they get the medium cavalry category. And it's enough, if you can stop the enemy's heavy cavalry to get your line from rear then it's all right, isn't it?

[Andronikos]

Is the Median medium cavalry the same?

[Watchman]

For the most part, though they're of Regular rather than Veteran base quality and don't have the leg armour. Ditto Asiatikoi Hippeis. The Hai Aspet Hetsomethings are also Veteran quality, but don't have the leg defenses either.

[strategos roma]

I know this has been said before, but hoplitai haploi is simply incredible. They can hold a line fairly long and are probably the best levy unit in game. I just wish that AS can recruit them.

[Apraxiteles]

Isn't it amazing that the CASSE can recruit them in ALEXANDRIA-ESCHATE, but the Seleukids can't recruit them in Hellas?

[satalexton]

hellenes are a minority population there, the seleukids would want them as pikemen rather than wasting them as militia. Casse, on the other hand, are conquerers and would want to keep their subjects as nothing more than militia in dire situations.

[darius_d]

It's excellent thread.

Surprisingly bad: cohors reformata and imperatoria.

These are boys to beat by all: they are more numbered than typical medium opponent unit but without chevrons they perform quite poorly - nothing to do with famous legionaries efficiency.

So indeed making any comparisons to them has little value, they are not good reference.

Surprisingly good:
Iberi Scutari


These guys are not that expensive - 1785 mnai, and have decent stats, but somehow they beat many other units of better stats, and perform overall better than many theoretically better units from Carthaginian or Lusotannan roster.

For example they can beat most units costing about 2000 mnai, medium phalanx 1 on 1 from the front (if they have access to their sides), and then they kill many % of expensive elites before they die or rout.
In some cases they perform better against elite infantry than theoretically more suitable (and expensive) Iberian Assault Infantry (for ex against Inf Guild Warriors - Baktria).

Indeed they perform better than expected against any type of troops, and being spearmen they are suitable against cavalry and chariots. On top of that they are fast moving to chase units and do not get exhausted quickly like heavy units, which is important in crucial moments.

All this makes them very versatile infantry suitable for any role on battlefield.
Their main weakness is vulnerability on missiles (they don't have heavy armor) and then perhaps not the highest morale. But after all - they are not elite.

Another good:
Iberian Assault Infantry


Exclusively Carthaginian unit. Again excellent ratio: price/effectiveness.

They beat most infantry units available in the game, for example any roman infantry unit 1 on 1, all phalanxes units 1 on1 (if they have access to their sides). Only most expensive infantry elites can beat them, but it means it must be much more expensive infantry than 2239 mnai.
They are good against missiles because of armor.

Their weaknesses are: - they got exhausted quickly as heavy inf, they must avoid chariots and they are less effective against cav then spearmen.
The best use is against infantry lines of any type.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Cohors Imperatoria can hold aganist almost all i've experienced, without any chevron. They make a good amount of kills, they have numbers, and they are pretty cheap for their use, i won't accuse them to be surprisingly bad...

[Watchman]

IMO people complain about them mostly because their expectations are much too high and based off the exploits of hardened veteran legions under brilliant commanders...
Factually, the Legions were so good because they had no real weaknesses (save for those inherent to all heavy infantry, natch) and formed the sharp end of a very well-honed and well-developed military-industrial complex. The individual soldier wasn't really all that hot, doubly so compared to honest-to-God warrior aristocracies and suchlike; but he was well trained to operate as part of a highly disciplined and very well equipped army with excellent support structures, and on the whole easily replaced - particularly under the Late Republic the various wannabe potentates with the cash for it seem to have been able to keep pulling out full Legions almost from thin air, but naturally enough raw ones weren't anything to write home about.

Also Spartacus could perhaps tell you a fair bit about the FABULOUS QUALITY of the Legions, as could the Cimbri and Teutones. And several Pontic generals.

[darius_d]

you know guys, in MP battles I eat them for breakfast with my scutari
My 80 guys easily beat 90 legionairies, no matter if they are on guard mode or not. Poor guys.

They seem to be like having rather quantity advantage compared to many others which have a bit more quality...
I exaggerate, but only a bit.

Accounts of performance under Marius, Sulla, Caesar, and others - legionairies were able to repel attacks and stay victorious with minimum losses despite usually outnumbered, and sometimes surprised in the trap.
It was not just commander who made a difference.

I don't expect superhumans, but for me they have reversed features in EB 1.2., which is pitiful.

[Moros]

you know guys, in MP battles I eat them for breakfast with my scutari
My 80 guys easily beat 90 legionairies, no matter if they are on guard mode or not. Poor guys.

They seem to be like having rather quantity advantage compared to many others which have a bit more quality...
I exaggerate, but only a bit.

Accounts of performance under Marius, Sulla, Caesar, and others - legionairies were able to repel attacks and stay victorious with minimum losses despite usually outnumbered, and sometimes surprised in the trap.
It was not just commander who made a difference.

I don't expect superhumans, but for me they have reversed features in EB 1.2., which is pitiful.

Well the losses recorded by ancient historians or the generals themselves (Caesar) are usually not to be trusted that much though.

[darius_d]

Well the losses recorded by ancient historians or the generals themselves (Caesar) are usually not to be trusted that much though.

Of course, but the same historians agree romans usually fought outnumbered.
Which brings us to the same conclusion.

[Watchman]

Remember the couple of armies the Cimbri and Teutones wiped out *before* Marius was handed that job...? And let's not even get started on what Spartacus managed.

Seeing as how even during the Empire the actual observance of an individual legion's theoretical "staying in shape" drill, training and practice was in practice entirely dependent upon the willingness and energy of their CO to enforce those... Particularly problematic in peaceful times and regions.
For example I've read of this one guy who arrived at his post as the commander of a legion stationed in Syria or thereabouts (during one of those lulls in the sporadic wars with the Iranians natch) only to find out his new underlings were by *far* more competent in gambling and whoring than soldiering.
So he took them to military exercises in the Armenian highlands...
So yeah.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

You mean Lucullus?

[Watchman]

Damned if I can remember out of hand.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Doesn't matter - Fact is that Romani legionaries are sucky troops and should be nerfed to be true to their barbaric nature .

[Watchman]

I'll have you remember here that EB barbarians are pretty hardcore.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I'll have you remember here that EB barbarians are pretty hardcore.

Nah, there is no barbarian but the ONE TRUE Barbaroi. And they are effeminate, short and weak.

[Watchman]

...the Itchy Dwarves ?

[Skullheadhq]

...the Itchy Dwarves ?

Noes! The ONE TRUE BARBARIAN

[Watchman]

...Conan ?

[antisocialmunky]

Epic for reference to epic AAR. :) I'm tempted to bump it for the sheer brilliance of it.

[Andy1984]

These guys are the true killers of my Seleucid armies. While they may get bogged down in masses of heavy infantry (which you shouldn't encounter that much in the east), they're absolute killers when chasing routers. Their ability to wipe out generals, as well as to scare infantry makes them perfect for other tasks as well, including flanking or breaking up the formation of enemy infantry before a cavalry charge. Combine all this with their two hit points, and an upkeep of only 900, and you should be capable to pull off some victories and experience points with them.

[antisocialmunky]

Don't charge cataphracts with them. They die in hilarious fashion.

[Rahwana]

The very problem is if they get some casualities, they tend to rout much quicker than usual...

[Andronikos]

Besides awesome Hetairoi Kataphraktoi and armoured horse archers, these plain-looking guys make Baktria a cavalry superpower. They have powerful charge, secondary AP axe, speed, stamina and low cost. They can cause massive cassualties or routs to heavy infantry when back-charging, against lighter ones frontal charge works too, perform well in melee and catch routers.