Javelins

[antisocialmunky]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

[Foot]

We are happy with the performance of javelins in EBI, you can expect to see the same results in EBII as you did in EBI. We would love to include some sort of penalty to units that have been struck by javelins to represent their primary use before a charge as a device for disrupting a formation. However, we cannot, and it would be inappropriate to have them as some sort of killing machine instead.

Foot

[antisocialmunky]

You could use the attack/defense/morale lowering green status from the Kingdoms bee weapons.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Are you kidding me, ASM? Javelins were a killer. All you ought to do is to throw at the unprotected side, and you ought to have a really heavy armour to not suffer astounding casualties.

[satalexton]

how likely would it, for a javalin to embed itself within a bronze faced aspis? =/

I figure it'd just get a *plink* and a dent.

[John the Mad]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

What you need is mass and volume for them to be effective.

One unit throwing them frontally against another isn't going to be very effective.What you want is two or more units,throwing at different angles over several seconds of game time to see how effective they are.

The only unit i ran into immune to this was the Epiorite elite phalanx and it was lame because they also are immune to being charged in the rear,flanks,front by heavy infantry or cavalry or a combination of both.

They will kill you with their backsides.

[antisocialmunky]

Well okay, I'll take your word for it but slingers and archers are much more economical for more kills at a farther range. If at all possible, 1 more javelin for skirmishers would make them much better.

[John the Mad]

Well okay, I'll take your word for it but slingers and archers are much more economical for more kills at a farther range. If at all possible, 1 more javelin for skirmishers would make them much better.

No need to take my word as we all experience different results in the game.

My usual MO for javelins are

A:Move slingers and archers into a firing posistion ahead.
B:Once their front rank is disordered move Leves backed up by Roarii through the lines taking slingers off fire.
C:Back up each with a unit of hastati to keep them from charging.
D:once in posisition have the Leves and Roarii pick a target.
E:Watch the fun begin.

I've slaughtered entire units in this fashion i think the key though is to get a unit a bit disordered.

Now i'm not saying this is going to break a battle line but you can destroy one to two units over a period of time with the most destruction coming from the javelins.You need two to four javelin units concentrating their fire on a single though at a time.

This technique works really good at driving units away from gates.

[Watchman]

how likely would it, for a javalin to embed itself within a bronze faced aspis? =/

I figure it'd just get a *plink* and a dent.

The bronze covering was paper thin and mainly useful for tensioning the wooden main body of the shield, you know. It's certainly not going to do a first thing against a javelin, a weapon universally noted for its tendency to embed itself rather deeply in shields.

Anyway, from what I gather javelins *were* rather dangerous in particular to close-order infantry that couldn't readily dodge the slow-flying things. Which is exactly why most everyone put a screen of skirmishers in front of their battleline as a countermeasure - javelin skirmishers were relatively ineffective against each other (as the loose order allowed them to dodge without much difficulty), but could do serious harm to exposed heavy troops as for example Telamon so succintly demonstrated.

Also in EB1 it has often seemed to me they don't quite have the punch they should in order to be a reasonably effective short-range alternative to bows, which they historically were - as evidenced by the fact steppe nomads commonly enough carried them for short-range use in adjunct to their composite bows, and their enormous popularity particularly among cavalry in regions where the composite bow wasn't the main ranged weapon for mounted use. This disparity is perhaps most starkly apparent in the EB1 javelin-armed cavalry, who expect for a few rather specialised purposes (such as hunting chariots and elephants) are, frankly, just plain not even close to being worth your while if you can get true HAs.

Dunno 'bout how the M2TW ranged combat really works though, and if there's stuff that can be tweaked there to make ye olde thrown spear a bit less of a "second rate" weapon. I must say however that ASM's idea of giving them a temporary penalising effect would seem like a reasonably promising way for simulating the disordering and shield-damaging effect the things had which made them so useful for heavy-infantry encounters.

[antisocialmunky]

Another idea would be to boost javelin accuracy so more hit. Javelin infantry will sometimes get a unit card blinking(taking tons of kills may break).

[Watchman]

Depends. As mentioned, AFAIK they weren't terribly useful against open-order light troops since those could just dodge (a javelin is big and easy to see in flight, and doesn't fly all that fast), but close-order heavies were wont to suffer. Not that I knew how this stuf works in M2TW though, I only got around to even installing the damn thing last weekend...

[DaciaJC]

The only unit i ran into immune to this was the Epiorite elite phalanx and it was lame because they also are immune to being charged in the rear,flanks,front by heavy infantry or cavalry or a combination of both.

They will kill you with their backsides.

Where all else fail... Drapanai/Rhomphaiaphoroi succeed!

Personally, I find javelins, whether of the AP variety or not, to be incredibly useful in EB, certainly much more so than arrows. With skirmishers being as light as they are, it is a simply manner to loose a few volleys when the enemy is charging (which always results in hilarity; individual soldiers do death-tumbles in the air), pull them back behind the main line, and maneuver them behind the enemy's rear to deal out more death.

Though I do agree with Watchman's assessment of skirmisher cavalry: I never found a good use for them, as their numbers (~50 on large unit size, as with all other cavalry) are too small to dish out major damage, and one can usually afford two units of infantry skirmishers in place of one unit of cavalry skirmishers.

[satalexton]

javalinmen are useful, mix them with archers and slingers and watch them silly ladder-holding assaulters die.

[antisocialmunky]

Light skirmisher cavalry don't have enough missiles to be useful. Gameplay-wise, they need more missiles or some sort of other use.

And no, sieges don't count. Sieges never count.

[satalexton]

how can they not count =/ a half stack of psloi can essentially grind a full stack of AS spam down to nothing...

[Bucefalo]

I think javelin cavalry is quite useful. I guess we agree that a volley of javelins causes more damage than one of arrows at short range, the main advantage of the arrows is that they can be fire from much longer distance.

Pin an enemy infantry with one infantry unit of your own (no matter if it have lower quality), then manouver your javelin cav to the rear of the enemy unit, and fire a volley of javelin at close range at their backs. Watch them tremble, and if they don´t rout, just keep firing or if your unit have decent melee stats charge at them.

I find that is one the best ways of using javelin cav, as a horse archer could do the same, but their impact at close range cause much less damage on the moral of the enemy than what the javelins do.

Besides, i find the idea of adding the "disease" kingdoms effect to the javelins interesting, maybe a little overpowered thought.

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

yeah, but why many javelins are less effective than arrows?
haven t javelin more weight than arrow?
Many horse archers and archers have 5 or 6 of missile attack, the same point of skirmishers: then javelin should be more powerful, in my mind.
2 armoured skirmisher cavalry suck against 1 unarmored horse archer cav(especially raiders witch can charge).
With EB1 units stats, i prefer to take archers than skirmishers, because archers can easily kill all enemy skirmishers before they come near my army.

Post Scriptum
About roman pilum: this is only weapon that can save legionaries from extra heavy cavalry charge... PLEASE MAKE IT MORE POWERFUL, almost like spanish solifera (6 of attak).

[antisocialmunky]

how can they not count =/ a half stack of psloi can essentially grind a full stack of AS spam down to nothing...

I'll believe that when I see it as AS spams elites in my game.

[satalexton]

caucasian archers, slingers + akonkistai, @ karkarthiokerta. Arbela also works somewhat. The cities are located on top of a hill of sorts, shoot them to make them run up the hill (use hippakonkistai as 'incentive'). arrows + fatique + rocks and javalins = lots of dead AS troops

[antisocialmunky]

... because a terrain + siege scenario obviously allow one to claim his hypothesis works for the general case of open field battle. -_-'

[Hanoeman]

My main use for javelin cavalry is harassing other troops and sometimes trying to lure away enemy cavalry. Of course in game effects don't really correctly represent the punch harassing could have had in real ancient life, but it still does the trick most of the time. Javelins shouldn't really be stronger, but I'm all in favour of the more accurate idea. Although that applies mostly to specific situations where the throwers are standing more or less still and can actually pick out an individual target. If they're just vollying away the impact of the javelins is fine as it is.

[Blxz]

Javelins sucked in EBI except for the AP variety. Is EBII going to give them some much needed punch?

Just made a post about javelins in the EBI forum, then I find one here already. They really do seem underpowered. But some people really know how to use them to good effect. Would love to see a youtube video giving a demonstration.

[Azathoth]

Something that really weakens the skirmishers and makes them seem worthless to some is their inability to fire while on the move. Instead of stopping, turning as a unit, raising their javelins as a unit, and throwing (I'm assuming the officer yells something along the lines of "Ready! Aim!...") they should behave more like the cavalry and just do it as they run.

[antisocialmunky]

I suggested that a year ago and got no response, indeed that would make htem automatically better.

[John the Mad]

Javelin armed cavalry is effective as an annoyance and a distraction.

They will make leg based skirmeshers fall back and also pull the attention of a unit or two of spear or phalanx infantry.

They are fast enough and have enough stamina,that once done harrassing the enemy,they can be moved elsewhere to deliver quick rear and flanking strikes.

Versatile but fragile.

[Watchman]

I suggested that a year ago and got no response, indeed that would make htem automatically better.

Engine. 'Nuff said.

[John the Mad]

Engine. 'Nuff said.

I really wish Ca would rethink their stance on making the game more marketable to a younger crowd.

Every decsion seems to be based on what will sell better to the 14 year old crowd yet everyone buying and sticking by the series are a bit older.

All they seem to focus on in the last two games is faster battle times,fewer turns,and unique "fantasy" specific units for factions.

Their only a couple degrees away from making Command and Conquer the Meideval edition.

[Cambyses]

Well, some javelin skirmishers are a lot more effective than others. ie Iberian/African troops have more javelins and a higher attack. Try using some of these guys and you will see that there is nothing wrong with the basic premise in EB1. Agreed that javelin skirmishers are considerably less effective at killing things from range than archers. But they are "generally" superior in close combat.

Skirmisher cavalry are rubbish at anything other than running down routers and getting in the way of the enemy. But then that is more or less their historical purpose isnt it?

[Bucefalo]

Skirmisher cavalry are rubbish at anything other than running down routers and getting in the way of the enemy. But then that is more or less their historical purpose isnt it?

I don´t think they´re rubbish, a volley of javelins at close range in the flank without shield/rear can do wonders to make an enemy unit rout. IMO they´re something like ancient "dragoons", they have less projectiles than foot javelinmen, but they´re mobile and can position themselves in much better places to use their javelins to maximun effect.

Only my two cents.

[Watchman]

Actually, they usually have *more* ammo than equivalent foot javelineers. Very considerably so, in the case of the guys riding horses with javelin quivers hanging from the saddle.