The Phalanx and Moral

[Megas Methuselah]

...but from what i remember reading, most of the diadochi armies had phalanx units in such numbers and other troops in almost negligible numbers (except dirt cheap skirmishers) that it was the phalanx that decided most battles.

Gathering from what I've read here in the EB Forums, it was this large ratio of phalanxes in diadochi armies that allowed their downfall on the battlefield.

[The General]

Gathering from what I've read here in the EB Forums, it was this large ratio of phalanxes in diadochi armies that allowed their downfall on the battlefield.

Indeed; it's very expensive to wield heavy cavalry and infantry units such as Hetairoi and Hypaspists, not even talk about Cataphracts and elephants, whereas a pike is relatively cheap to produce. Now, imagine over a hundred years' worth of almost continual conflicts and their toll on the national coffers.

[keiskander]

I would say it takes more courage to stand fast against cavalry that charges at you in full speed then facing a phalanx unit or a cohort. The impact is more sevear then an infantry clash some people just ran away when full heavy cavalry made a charge against their lines. "Ofcourse ellies aswell"

[Phalanx300]

I would say it takes more courage to stand fast against cavalry that charges at you in full speed then facing a phalanx unit or a cohort. The impact is more sevear then an infantry clash some people just ran away when full heavy cavalry made a charge against their lines. "Ofcourse ellies aswell"

I agree, I've seen a Horse running towards me once and it was already intimidating, let alone adding someone with a lance on top of that.


And yes the Romans and the Makedonians were both brutal, can't say so much about the spartans though .

First they sacrifice a goat and start marching towards you with what seems like unison of the entire line with their men singing their warcries and flutes and drumes playing. (this was apparantly very intimidating to see)

If you decide to face them the battle will be hard, if you run however you can run they wont persue.

I think that was important psycological warfare, since their enemies knew that if they would run they would live, yet if they would stand they could very well die (considering the reputation of the Spartans as well).

[gamegeek2]

I agree, I've seen a Horse running towards me once and it was already intimidating, let alone adding someone with a lance on top of that.

I'm sure with a large spear or pike you feel much more secure. Levies, though, would no doubt be terrified, especially skirmishers.

[ARCHIPPOS]

If you decide to face them the battle will be hard, if you run however you can run they wont persue.

I think that was important psycological warfare, since their enemies knew that if they would run they would live, yet if they would stand they could very well die (considering the reputation of the Spartans as well).

Yep and not only Spartans employed this psychological warfare

"-Iphicrates never allowed his lines to be broken in the heat of the pursuit. He continually called out to his light-armed troops to beware of ambushes. He also had a general rule, never to press the enemy too hard when they had been routed, if there were any narrow passes or rivers behind them; for if they are hemmed in, they are often forced by desperation to rally and fight again.
-When Iphicrates had forced a fleeing enemy into a narrow pass, he always tried to open a way for them, and give them a chance to escape, without making it necessary for them to force their way out by fighting. He said that there was no reason to compel an enemy to be brave."
(Polyaenus: Stratagems/BOOK 3)

of course you have to remember that Spartan omoioi (=equals) were always very few compared to the manpower of other city-states such as Athens,Thebes and so on... having a demographicaly declining pool of hoplites with which to secure the Lacedaemonian homeland from the helot threat and implement Spartan hegemony throughout Greece ... forces you to drasticaly economise on your forces shall we say???

[Ca Putt]

well he certainly was good at avoiding enemies fighting to the death :D

engaging a phalanx head on is already rewarded with loosing your units(and then they flee) and it's not like it's part of any abusing tactic to charge leives into a phalanx head on. off course people(and animals) want to avoid running into a wall of pointy sticks but so do Generals. most generals try to win with the smallest possible casualties thus only very few qwould actually try to charge non elite troops into a phalanx head on. it's a bit like damageing troops over time that stand at a stupid location or texturing a large bullseye on city walls to indicate where to attack, thus extra effort to avoid players(and the AI) acting stupid which have unwanted side effects.

Edit: ok pinning phalanxes with Haploi or the like is sort of abuseing but it's not like they kill the phalanx they rather stand there and attract agression^^. standing in front of a phalanx and trying not to get killed(provided you have a large shield) does take much less courage than actually trying to kill them.

I think we all agree with you that Phalanxes are scary yet imho this would have more negative side effects than It would make gameplay or accuracy better.

[antisocialmunky]

OT: I know I shouldn't act like a MOD but this has been really iritating me lately...

[rant]Can we stop turning random threads into Spartan wankfests already? They were interesting dudes, we get it.

If you're going to bring them up, atleast keep it on topic. We're talking about Phalanxes and psychological warfare, not about the reasons why military socialism declined in Greece.[/rant]

< Now back to your regularly scheduled programming >

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Why would the phalanx in EB need the scaring-attribute? The opponent already throws himself brainlessly against the sarissai, dies and routs, so the phalanx basically serves its purpose. Also I think about how difficult it is to get two lines of phalanxes fight each other instead of interrupting senselessly. If two phalanxes with the scaring-attribute meat each other head on, I can imagine guys like Pantodapoi Phalangitai rout after two seconds just because one side's general blows the trumpet. That would be ridiculous. I think phalanxes are quite balanced in EB.

If anything, the height advantage effect should be (drastically) reduced. I'm quite fed up with my Argyraspides getting torn apart by Pantodapoi Phalangitai.

[Ludens]

OT: I know I shouldn't act like a MOD but this has been really iritating me lately...

[rant]Can we stop turning random threads into Spartan wankfests already? They were interesting dudes, we get it.

If you're going to bring them up, atleast keep it on topic. We're talking about Phalanxes and psychological warfare, not about the reasons why military socialism declined in Greece.[/rant]

We don't enforce a strict on-topic policy because often spin-off discussions can be just as interesting as the original (unless they are spam, off course). However, if the participants wish it, I can move posts relating to the decline of Sparta to a new thread.

[torongill]

I'm cheating, but against the pezhtaroi all I need to do is form the triarii/spartans in shieldwall , line them 3 deep and plunge in the forest of spears. They take it from there. I know this is cheating, but the problem is that the engine is not very good on pushing. So I use hoplites against them. Maybe against silvershields or the egema, the hoplites would do a poor job. Though it works for the armored hoplites only and only for the shieldwall formation. I wonder what are the bonii of the shieldwall?