How to fight a pike phalanx without another phalanx? Help!!!

[Tenebrous]

I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?

I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?

[Apázlinemjó]

I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?

I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?

Then micromanaging all of your units is vital. Break up the enemy's line with diversions and attack the little groups one by one with your remaining troops. Of course if you are outnumbered and outclassed with elites, then the only real option is to retreat, if you can.

[Stycks]

As i put in my other posts about phalanxes (but not put into detail)....
what i love doing is using my skirmishers as my front line and sticking my high star general behind them
all the rest of my troops wheel around the back and
BAM!

that phalanx should be gone

then again theres that problem of ur skirmishers routing or your flankers being attacked etc...
its up to you on how to deal with that (everyone has their favorite way of flanking )

alls im saying is that pin and flank and u wanna pin them with units u can easily replace (yes very selfish and ruthless of me )


happy phalanx smashing and very good luk on that campaign
ur gonna be like this half the time with AS

[antisocialmunky]

Form you phalanxes into short units instead of lines. Always combat other phalanxes with ones taht are of equal or greater quality. Bring some scary dudes.

[satalexton]

push through them with pike blocks, back up your blocks with swordsmen. push-of-pike's a scary thing for a good reason.

[mountaingoat]

any unit wider than the phalanx will wrap around them , form wide lines with inf.

[miotas]

I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?

I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?

Spread your lines as thin as possible and mass most of your infantry on the one flank, then once the lines engage send your flanking infantry around and roll up the enemy lines.

[Cute Wolf]

If you're hayasdan... you need horse archers... seriously.... to compliment your particularly crappy infantry, especially in your earlier period. (seriously, no eastern non hellenic factions get good native melee infantry)

But If you did restrict them, or not using them anyway... then hire some galatians, or tech up your MIC (and get reforms) to get acess to your swordsmen. Once you could manage that, pin the front of the phalanx with some expandable spearmen (such as Kavakaza Sparabara, or better still Hai Nizgarmantik), and use the swordsmen to hack their side, while if u can, get a cavalry charge on their back... that should be fine...

Or if u still in your poor petty kingdom state (ande not yet have neither money nor men to be thrown into certain death), then use the anything infantry to pin, and let your FM charge them from the back... Made sure that you deploy your men on one side of the map, so you got local numerical superriority, and capable to pin one (and kill) at a time....

[Ca Putt]

in my Hai campaign I tried to replace my sparabara with armenian Spearmen as they are "better" against cav archers (better in terms of not ista dead) which come from the north and can hold against Seleukid phalanxes while the rest of your army(no matter if archers, slingers, skirmishers, HAs, Kinsmen or axemen kill them from behind, they all do it in their individual fashion and it all works very well(keep in mind armored phalanxes should be atttacked with either slingers axemen or Kinsmen)

It's not much of a great difference to the KH tactic expet that your pinners are weaker and your flankers are probably faster. ;) the more Hai like tactic would involve more HAs and not pinning the phalangites but to lure them with one unit and harras them with a second until the Phalanx is at quarter strength(or you run out of javelins :P ) charge in with all units availible. note that with your superior speed you can isolate phalanxes but still unite your army in order to swarm one of them to make them roit.

If outnumbered by phalanxes I would try to occupy two non elite phalanxes with one unit of Hoplites(or better) and break up one block after the other with my lance cavalry.

[team_kramnik]

My favourite method as Saka is to deploy a sufficently strong cavalry force infront of a phalanx. Wait for some braindead ai-manouvering. Charge.
Might be a bit unrealistic though.

As far as historical examples go the only battle I know when a phalanx based army was defeated by an non-hellenistic army with an evenly matched infantry-force is the Battle of Pydna. Here the Roman legions pinned the phalanx from the front, slowly falling back, while the elephants rolled up the phalanx from the right. Should be easy to recreate.

[satalexton]

The persian hoplites are actually quite good in holding troops, not to mention they can form a scratch flank/assault force with swords if need be..

[Raygereio]

In my last Hayasdan campaign, I found the most economic means of dealing with phalanx armies (winning with the least amount of casualties so that they can fight of the next stack the Arche sends after me) to be horse archers.

A single half stack of horse archers and skirmishers, combined with a couple of FM's to deliver a good solid punch when the enemy units are weakened from all the arrows sticking in their backsides should be able to fight anything infantry related the AI sends after you from the south.

Just remember that once you've shot all of your arrows; retreat. Don't stick arround and try repeatedly charging enemy units to make them rout; it may win you the battle, but it will cost you soldiers, something the Hayasdan can't afford in the early stages.

Now if you're past the early stages, have a decent infrastructure and can afford all the nice units the Hayasdan have to offer. Then Armenian Medium Infantry, Armenian Noble Infantry, Babylonian Heavy Spearmen and Persian Hoplites can all hold the line long enough without too many casualties for you to bash the phalanx's to oblivion with your heavy cavalry.

[Raiuga]

Ok thank you all for the reply's.

Pin and flank...well that's what I mostly do (should have mentioned that from the start). I post this just to know if there was any other tactic. As for horse archers, I might reconsider and use them in my campaign.

The phalanx has been discussed as overpowered, and I don't know enough about the phalanx to refute or support either side of the argument

Neither do I.

[vartan]

I have to ask though, how about when your outnumbered or even matched with full stacks?

I have yet to find a good strategy other than spreading them out, but it seems so unrealistic, and just taking way to much advantage of stupid ai, where a real army would never do so. Are there any good strategies for fighting a phalanx army when they outnumber you?

I remember during the tourney, people would just avoid the phalanx, and aim for your flanks. Your phalanxes would be useless. They only engaged your phalanx with their own phalanx, if they had it.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I apply the same basic strategy to all my battles.

Priority 1: Kill enemy cavalry.
Priority 2: Kill enemy missile troops.
Priority 3: Kill enemy heavy infantry.

Isolate the phalangites, then kill them (after you've killed everything else.)

[Macilrille]

Yeps, notice that this thread deals mostly with online MP battles. But the principle is the same Vs the AI. Probably easier as the opponent has a brain...

[Dutchhoplite]

But how would you fight a allmost full stack of pikes formed up in a double line and partially hidden by a treeline??

Like this:

ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppppp

I faced (me being the attacking side) them with a KH army army of some pike, hoplites, some light troops and limited cavalry.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

As the attacker or as the defender?

As KH, I'd hesitate to attack a full (Macedonian?) stack like that unless I had a full stack myself. 18 units of phalanxes is a lot - that's 4320 men on Huge unit size. Not to be taken lightly by 'little' KH.

As the defender, it's easier - stand on a hill and let them tire themselves out reaching your position before outflanking them.

[Dutchhoplite]

Well, in units we were about even so i decided to take them on but i did'nt expect to stumble across a Seleucid stack consisting only of pikes :D