French and Moland vs. Republic of Congo

[Sigurd]

This is just great entertainment.
I mean, Congo must have brighter people than those who are participating in this trial. It just boggles my mind that this is supposed to be an actual military tribunal.

A brief intro:
Two Norwegians on a field trip to the republic of Congo was allegedly attacked by guerrillas which killed their driver. They escaped and were arrested for the murder of the driver.
The Congolese government has appointed a military tribunal because these two young men, Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland, had military backgrounds. (Yeah, like every other young Norwegian).
The case against them is as thin as the razor blade I used to shave my face this morning.
The driver was killed by shots to the head with three 7.62mm rounds. The murder weapon presented as evidence in the case is a 12 g. shotgun which can only be loaded one shell at the time. Witnesses told the court they heard 3 rapid shots.
These men's rights have been violated numerous times during their arrest and during this case. The indictments against them have snowballed and the State attorney now demands 500 billion US dollars from the State and King of Norway for sending these two spies to Congo.



As there are no English newspapers covering this:
articles with bad Google translations of today's court - 3000 billion lawsuit and Demands 1.3 times the Norwegian oil fund

[Don Corleone]

Unfortunately, the Congolese aren't so stupid. I doubt it will be 1.3x your annual oil revenues, or anywhere near 500 billion for that matter, but I'm certain Norwegian diplomats are trying to figure out how high the real price tag is as we speak.

[HoreTore]

Let them rot in hell.

It's hired killers like these who helps keep Congo the hell-hole it is. This should be a warning to every other would-be merc; don't carry a gun in a dictatorship. It ain't smart.

And do not, under any circumstance, use your military ID-card as identification while carrying a gun in a warzone.

EDIT: Oh, and toss a bag of oil-money at the widow. I don't care who shot her husband, she's still got 6 kids to feed. Take it from the aid-budget if you want.

[Sigurd]

Unfortunately, the Congolese aren't so stupid. I doubt it will be 1.3x your annual oil revenues, or anywhere near 500 billion for that matter, but I'm certain Norwegian diplomats are trying to figure out how high the real price tag is as we speak.

A joke military tribunal held in Congo can't demand a single dime from Norway. They would have to take this to Haag. And I am sure their case will hold water in Haag

[Centurion1]

It's hired killers like these who helps keep Congo the hell-hole it is. This should be a warning to every other would-be merc; don't carry a gun in a dictatorship. It ain't smart.

These are your countrymen and where in that entire article does it call them "hired killers". The reason the Congo is the hell hole it is because of early colonial withdrawal, corruption, and "rebels" who only kill more innocents. Heck, if i went to the bloody congo i would carry a weapon to protect myself as well.

Absolutely idiotic, as if that 500 billion would actually go to the widow, psh.

[Don Corleone]

A joke military tribunal held in Congo can't demand a single dime from Norway. They would have to take this to Haag. And I am sure their case will hold water in Haag

So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed? If so, bully on you, but I thought only Israel and some American administrations had the resolve in the West where you could expect to see the government not blink. (Correction: Of late, based on their actions in Somalia, I'd have to include France on this list).

[Louis VI the Fat]

Intruiging case. Just who are these two guys and what were they up to in the first place?

False names, weapons, a private security firm. Mercenaries, perchance?

Two tourists - fine, you either get them back or pay to get them back. These guys, I'm not so sure Norway should go the extra mile. Africa is too full with mercenaries as is.

Also, what of 'risk'? The profits of the security firm are privatised. Maybe these two upstarts should've thought about ensuring proper 'get out of jail' money beforehand, or invest in beneficial local relations. Instead of relying on 'private profits, socialized risk'.

http://www.privatemilitaryherald.com...gin-on-friday/

[Louis VI the Fat]

Oh my. Looks like our two Viking heroes rather enjoy the spilled blood of darkies.

Uhm, picture rated age 18 and over I guess:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[HoreTore]

These are your countrymen and where in that entire article does it call them "hired killers".

I've been reading about this since they were arrested in the early summer, ya know... And Josef Fritzl can be as austrian as he wants to, if I was austrian, I'd still want him to rot in hell.

So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed?

They won't get executed, Congo doesn't practice the death penalty.

Intruiging case. Just who are these two guys and what were they up to in the first place?

False names, weapons, a private security firm. Mercenaries, perchance?

Two tourists - fine, you either get them back or pay to get them back. These guys, I'm not so sure Norway should go the extra mile. Africa is too full with mercenaries as is.

Also, what of 'risk'? The profits of the security firm are privatised. Maybe these two upstarts should've thought about ensuring proper 'get out of jail' money beforehand, or invest in beneficial local relations. Instead of relying on 'private profits, socialized risk'.

http://www.privatemilitaryherald.com...gin-on-friday/

[Sigurd]

So your government is prepared to live with the political fallout from watching these two executed on video feed? If so, bully on you, but I thought only Israel and some American administrations had the resolve in the West where you could expect to see the government not blink. (Correction: Of late, based on their actions in Somalia, I'd have to include France on this list).

If they are guilty of murder, then they should take the punishment. They were caught on the run after a man was shot to death. They claim they were hunted by guerrillas and escaped an ambush. During their training with the Telemark battalion, they claim using jokes will help them deal with traumatic incidents. They picture where Moland wipe blood from the seat grinning, is said to be a reaction to the ambush.
It is the allegations that the terror-nation Norway sent two spies into Congo to stir up the population I find surreal. I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.
I mean, A picture of Moland in a security uniform from a well known mall-security agency is supposed to be evidence that Moland is a sergeant in the Norwegian army. Also, a picture of Moland in the royal guard (from his compulsory service) incriminates the King. That they had military ID's isnt saying much. I still have my military ID from the days I was in the Navy. I guess I need to remember to take it out of my wallet if I ever go to Africa.
There was also a picture of a guy wearing a SAS berret pointing at a map of Africa on one of their cellphones. This guy is now identified as a news photographer and sent it to some of his Norwegian friends in Africa (not Moland or French) with the under text: I know where you are.
The congolese prosecutor claims that the man on that picture is their Secret boss.

I can't wait until morning when the trial continues. I am and at the same time.
The defense counselor will take this to the supreme court if they are found guilty. The Forreign affairs department have people down there, but are not involved in the case.

If the congolese are serious about expanding this case to include the Norwegian State or The Royals, they better call in some representatives. Moland and French - in this case are just small pieces in a larger picture.

[HoreTore]

It is the allegations that the terror-nation Norway sent two spies into Congo to stir up the population I find surreal. I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.

Of course that charge is ridiculous. But the problem is; Congo doesn't have a law against mercs, which they should have. So I'm perfectly happy to have them branded as spies, on the condition that they were in fact mercenaries.

But anyway Sigurd, you still have your military ID, so do I. I keep it in my wallet, under my drivers license. Do you wear yours around your neck like Moland did? Also, when you're in the security/hitman business, it should be pretty much common sense to ditch things like that, unless, of course, you wear it in order to use it for your benefit.... In which case they should be slapped repeatedly.



As a side note, it has baffled me that in a country with conscription, so few journalists seem to grasp the concept of what vernepliktsboka(military ID) actually is... They've been treating it like something only a certain few is given, something you hand in after your service has ended, etc etc....

well actually, it might be something you hand in after your service has ended, I wouldn't know, there's still a long time until I'm 45 and my service has ended.... Oh, sweet sweet dimmedag...

[Centurion1]

They won't get executed, Congo doesn't practice the death penalty.

I am sorry do you really believe this.

[Dîn-Heru]

Moland was a second lieutenant in His Majesty the King's Guard, as far as I know he didn't serve his compulsory service in the Guard, so the ID is that of an officer (the pink one stating rank and such) not the blue one us privates had. Which was "destroyed" when we were discharged by punching a few holes in it.

Are they guilty, I have no idea. The monetary claim against the Norwegian state however is just ridiculous. (Especially give that the statistical value of a human life (in America) is in the range between 1 and 8 mill USD), and that there is no ties to official Norwegian involvement in them being in Kongo in the first place. The court proceedings is a farce, hopefully the appeal court belongs to this planet and not outer space, so that they can get a fair trial.

[HoreTore]

I am sorry do you really believe this.

Yes, and that might be because it's.... True?

Congo gives people the death penalty, yes. But they haven't executed someone for a long time. The procedure is that the prisoner sends a letter to the president asking pardon, which the president doesn't reply to. As long as he doesn't reply, the execution cannot be carried out, thus turning the sentence into de facto life in prison.

Of course, you could argue that spending time in a congo prison equals a death penalty....

Moland was a second lieutenant in His Majesty's Guard, as far as I know he didn't serve his compulsory service in the Guard, so the ID is that of an officer (the pink one stating rank and such) not the blue one us privates had. Which was "destroyed" when we were discharged by punching a few holes in it.

Ah. Well, given the army way of handing things in after you've quit, I can't imagine it would've been hard to sneak it out as a souvenir.

There's a reason I have a complete uniform(perm), 2 "ullfrotte's", my boots, 5 AG-3 magazines(the backup clean set I had so I never had to clean the set I used...) and more socks than I can count.

Everything supposed to be returned.
None of it paid for.
The document for turning in stuff has it listed as turned in, all signed and good.
Everything is in my closet as we speak.

[Dîn-Heru]

Hehe, the ironic part is that if they get out of the hellhole that is Congo they risk facing charges for not having turned in their ID's apparently.. (but still better than a life sentence in a Congolese prison..)

As for sneaking the ID out for us regulars, perhaps not as easy, as they collected all of them and went berserk with the hole-punch machine before they handed them back to us as souvenirs... (officers don't face such scrutiny it would seem..)

[Sigurd]

Hehe, the ironic part is that if they get out of the hellhole that is Congo they risk facing charges for not having turned in their ID's apparently..

As for sneaking the ID out for us regulars, perhaps not as easy, as they collected all of them and went berserk with the hole-punch machine before they handed them back to us as souvenirs... (officers don't face such scrutiny it would seem..)

Thats right... It is a hard earned card.

Well I don't have the new fancy pansy ID card. In my time we had the red book and the "King's card".
The last fits nicely in my wallet and reminds me of the good old days.

Ah well... the court is finally in session running late, again, which seems like the norm in Congo. (has it ever started on time - 0900?) It was declared in session 12 minutes past 11.

[Adrian II]

I have been following this case and the "evidence" the prosecution presents is at best ridiculous.

The article quoted above effectively states that they are mercenaries:

Evidence seized recently at the apartment the two men shared in Uganda could play a large role in the eventual outcome of the trial. During the police raid authorities found Norwegian military ID cards, counterfeit United Nations hats, employee ID badges with both the correct and false names of the two men. The employee badges are from a heretofore little known security company named Special Interventions Group (SIG) which is owned by and mostly staffed by Norwegians. [..] However, in previous public interviews Friksen and a staff member identifying himself as “John Hunt” has claimed that SIG has executed offensive combat operations in Africa, including in the DRC. According to Friksen these missions are conducted at the behest of paying clients though he did not disclose whom those clients may have been.

Sounds like it's their bogus story against that of the prosecutor.

The reputation of SIG is not very uplifting, according to the newspaper Aftenposten in 2007:

On the Monday edition of Dokument 2 images from the Norwegian managed security company Special Intervention Group's (SIG) extreme training course will be shown. The company is led by two Norwegians and provides training for Norwegians, Swedes and Danes to become bodyguards in war-torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, newspaper Dagbladet reports.

TV 2 has acquired a classified police report on the "specialized security industry" and according to the program SIG is one of the most feared companies in terms of creating potential criminals. The police report claims to have confirmed information that SIG has carried out liquidation assignments in Afghanistan for the American government, but the company rejects the accusation as "nonsense".

Like Louis said, Oslo probably shouldn't go the extra mile for these two backpackers.

[Papewaio]

well actually, it might be something you hand in after your service has ended, I wouldn't know, there's still a long time until I'm 45 and my service has ended.... Oh, sweet sweet dimmedag...

So is conscription a plus or minus in a countries lifestyle rating?

Sounds like Aus has a lot in common with some aspects of Scandiavian life, lifespan, literacy, economies... minus the snow and conscription.

[Sigurd]

The accused: Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland has been sentenced to death (five times) to day about quarter past one Western European time.

The indictments are: espionage, murder, attempted murder, armed robbery and organising a criminal federation.
Additionally, Norway must pay 60 million dollars to Kongo.

I am awaiting the response of the Norwegian government. These boys clearly needs to be extracted from this place where justice apparently bears no meaning.

[Krusader]

In my opinion, Norway should stop giving any aid money to DR Congo from now on. And not pay a penny of what the Congolese want. If anyone comes to my door asking for money for relief efforts or similar, I'll tell them No.

The trial has been just one big mess. Although I'm not so sure if they are innocent or not. Don't exactly think they were there as tourists.

[Kadagar_AV]

any official statement from norway yet?

[Sigurd]

any official statement from Norway yet?

Yes.

I just heard the official statement from our foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre (not Gah - Gahr. Or maybe we should just call him Gah Støre?).

In brief: The Norwegian state reacts strongly to the death sentence. But will not comment on the actual court process. He says that the process is not over - there is no legally enforcement in place as they can appeal to a higher court (civil) twice. It is therefore wise not to accuse the Congolese of anything yet because that could put these two young men in further jeopardy.

The Norwegian state protests the allegation that these two have spied for Norway in Congo and will actively work to overturn that part of the conviction.

The Norwegian state will contact the foreign minister in Congo and reiterate their strong objection to death sentences in general and for these to in particular. Støre will also contact Carl Bildt, the EU chairman.
He also holds Congo responsible for the security of French and Moland. He iterates that Norway must not act according to the Congolese prejudice towards general Europeans and jeopardise the security of these men. He says Congo is a nation that has suffered immensely and is still suffering. On the question of the court process - he simply said: I have noted the contrasts, but will not make a formal opinion as the process is not over - they should be considered innocent until proven guilty

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think at some point Norway will buy them free. (Outright ransom? Buying 500 million Euro's worth of diamond, copper, oil?)

Then they can have their Meghari triumphal parade in Oslo - the standard 'welcome home' for terrorists the world over.



I feel like going all Congo on Norway. Charge it heftily for any help in getting these two men out of there. Should've joined the EU before. No free rides, can't have your cake and eat it too etc etc. This sort of case is exactly what the pro-EU crowd means when it speaks about safety in numbers. I don't see NATO invading the Congo anytime soon, I don't think Norway is capable of. Communal pressure would do the trick. Not to mention, Belgium and France have excellent contacts and some leverage in Central Africa. There is always some business deal going on somewhere that can help bring these two back.

[Tribesman]

The accused: Joshua French and Tjostolv Moland has been sentenced to death

Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
If idiots choose to go and play silly buggers in a ****hole then thats their own lookout.
With choice comes responsibility, the responsibility for their predicament lies solely with their own choices.

[Sigurd]

I think at some point Norway will buy them free. (Outright ransom? Buying 500 million Euro's worth of diamond, copper, oil?)

Then they can have their Meghari triumphal parade in Oslo - the standard 'welcome home' for terrorists the world over.

I feel like going all Congo on Norway. Charge it heftily for any help in getting these two men out of there. Should've joined the EU before. No free rides, can't have your cake and eat it too etc etc. This sort of case is exactly what the pro-EU crowd means when it speaks about safety in numbers. I don't see NATO invading the Congo anytime soon, I don't think Norway is capable of. Communal pressure would do the trick. Not to mention, Belgium and France have excellent contacts and some leverage in Central Africa. There is always some business deal going on somewhere that can help bring these two back.

We have already spent hundreds of millions on humanitarian aid in Congo - sheesh, the dog now bites the hand that feeds it (no disrespect to the Congolese in general). French claims they were offered freedom if they came up with 30 000 dollars to the tribunal at the beginning of the court process. He claims this sentence was already decided a long time ago.

Norway could easily send in covert troops to extract Moland and French. But this would just enforce the prejudice the Congolese have of oppressing Europeans. It would be better if a civil Congolese court decleared them innocent of the charges. Let the process run its due. The Tribunal was an obvious farse. Anyone with eyes can see that.

[Tribesman]

Norway could easily send in covert troops to extract Moland and French.

Yeah right Have you been watching too many movies?

[Sigurd]

Yeah right Have you been watching too many movies?

My guess is that you don't know me or my past, or know much about the training exchange between UK and Norway.
I used to travel to Scotland a few years back. I do not claim to be an ex-OP, but I was in the milieu so to speak.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sigurd, seriosly... No, just no.

You seem to have absolutely no idea what it would take to pull off such a rescue attempt, or the size of the international scandal if it was intended.

1. You would have to know the EXACT location of the prisoners over a couple of days (just one hour one day is not enough, you need to have some time for unexpected stuff).

2. You would have to smuggle a spec-op squad into the heart of Congo undetected.

3. You would have to make sure the spec-ops got weapons and gear for the job, undetected (least of the problems, but still a problem).


so, even if you manage to get a geared up spec-op team in place, with excellent intelligence, there are still some issues..

A) You would have to shoot your way in, killing civilians...

B) You must have a safe escape afterwards, a clear road and a hiding place till extraction... Given the national uproar that would come, this might not be very easy.


Even if successfull, the operation would shame Norway a LOT and cause trouble with africa at large.

If unsuccessfull, you would stand with a spec-ops team caught for public display. No only would you now have 12 or so norwegians in custody instead of two, but you would be in a very very wierd situation when it coems to negotiating.

I must agree with Tribes, you have seen a bit too many movies...

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, seriosly... No, just no.

You seem to have absolutely no idea what it would take to pull off such a rescue attempt, or the size of the international scandal if it was intended.

1. You would have to know the EXACT location of the prisoners over a couple of days (just one hour one day is not enough, you need to have some time for unexpected stuff).

2. You would have to smuggle a spec-op squad into the heart of Congo undetected.

3. You would have to make sure the spec-ops got weapons and gear for the job, undetected (least of the problems, but still a problem).

so, even if you manage to get a geared up spec-op team in place, with excellent intelligence, there are still some issues..

A) You would have to shoot your way in, killing civilians...

B) You must have a safe escape afterwards, a clear road and a hiding place till extraction... Given the national uproar that would come, this might not be very easy.


Even if successfull, the operation would shame Norway a LOT and cause trouble with africa at large.

If unsuccessfull, you would stand with a spec-ops team caught for public display. No only would you now have 12 or so norwegians in custody instead of two, but you would be in a very very wierd situation when it coems to negotiating.

I must agree with Tribes, you have seen a bit too many movies...

First of all, it could be done. But let's not pull straw men from my text here. Read back to my actual statement - it was a response to Louis' suggestion of Norway not being capable of such operations. Believe me we are capable, more capable than what is publicly believed.
I said it could be done - but It will not be done because of the diplomatic reasons you mention.

The Norwegian state will allow Congo to fix this scandal themselves. Apparently there is a quarrel between the local government in the city where the trial was held and the central government. This was apparently a political mooning by the tribunal in Kisangani to the government in Kinshasa.
I resent the “movie” accusation but will not discuss this particular issue any further.

[rvg]

I hope Norway manages to gets its boys out of there. There's no way they could possibly get a fair trial in that hellhole.