Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I don't know why, but in my experience, Pontic heavy spearmen haven't been too effective. A unit of legionnarries can beat them, as can agrianikoi pelikophoroi. They are not bad, they are just not cost effective.

...You mean the Kuarothoroi? That's weird because they have have stats up in the 28's for Defense (weapon and exp upgrades) and 12-14 for sword attack (ditto).

Yes, but OTOH they aren't ideal on walls because they insist on using their spears up there. Not so very long ago I had a siege battle as Makedonia against the Getai, where I put these men up against a unit of Agema Orditon - only to experience a retarded spear-"duel" on the wall. (The Ordes won, btw., being an elite unit while the Kuarothoroi are just heavy infantry, which means I had to remove the Ordes manually with some falxmen or axemen).

I only had a single wall battle with them in my Pontos campaign and I have to say... I think differently. Of course the unit is not at all suited vs. a heavily armoured elites because it has no ap weapons, but it is still an effective "assault troop". I took many cities while having remarkably low casualties for them, and they certainly excel enough vs. enemy line troops... As well as unarmored troops like Wild Men due to their high attack and lethality. They have all the gear, BTW: heavy armour, high skill, big shield plus a couple more skill defense skill and attack. 1 vs. 1, I would expect them to win against Peltastai Makedonikoi.

By the way, I have no problems with the "spear vs. sword" switch.

All in all their stats and their cost mean they are ironically the best Pontic "elite" overall. Units like the Traikioi Rhomphaiaroi or the TAB might outclass them in the end, but they cost like 2x the upkeep of a single Kuarothoroi?

...I used to think all these elites were fine and all until I started recruiting and paying for them. Then I knew the strength of factions such as the Romani lies in highly effective line troops, which also applies for the Kuarothoroi. I can have twice as many of them as Chalkaspides or Wild Men, so numbers certainly become an advantage... and... since the phalanx is there to pin the enemy, they attacking from the rear also improves their odds. Which also leads to the fact that due to the lack of good heavy cavalry save for the generals, Kuarothroi make for a nice flank troop.

Not that I despise Galatian wild men and other elites. Wild Men fare quite better when the enemy has weaker missile troops or to hit an elite phalanx from the rear but they don't play nearly as large a role in my armies as Kuarothoroi.

[Ibrahim]

Highly efficient elephant killers, and, for their cost, excellent at skirmishing. Due to their unit size, they literally shower enemy lines with javelins. As a bonus, these guys can be recruited a stone's throw away from the Indian regions, where you'll be facing eleutheroi stacks with elephants.

amen.

they saved my rear in the historical battle-the one between seleukos and antigonos. great elephant killings were indeed made by them.

[Cyclops]

In my current Pontos campaign I RP'd my (type IV) Galatian allies to attack my Epirote allies and they (I) took Tylis. 4 heavy spears, 4 shortswords, some slings, a wild man and a couple of cav, plus a Vollorix. They were in it on their own, the Pontic Satrap in Byzantion refused to reinforce (so I RP'd) but the Epirotes took their lumps, wrote the loss off and went for peace ASAP.

Its a killer force, those heavy spears are meaty bastards, but with all the mad charging the Wild Men are getting thin on the ground (yeah I know they are best used to flank but you tell them that). All that armour makes a huge difference strategically: if this was an early-game western Celtic force my line would be bled out after 2-3 battles.

[Lupu]

Surprisingly bad unit:

These elephants are the single most expensive land unit in the game except for artillery. So they should absolutely mash anything, no matter what with that price, shouldn't they? Funny that all you need to murder a unit of them is to make a single charge with an even halved unit of low-level(relatively) cataphracts=the most expensive land unit in the game made useless.

[athanaric]

These elephants are the single most expensive land unit in the game except for artillery. So they should absolutely mash anything, no matter what with that price, shouldn't they? Funny that all you need to murder a unit of them is to make a single charge with an even halved unit of low-level(relatively) cataphracts=the most expensive land unit in the game made useless.

Yes, but OTOH, pretty much anything dies from a properly executed cataphract charge. That's what the cataphracts are for, after all. In a melee engagement between the two, the elephants win. And if the elephants charge the horsemen, the elephants win decidedly. It is more a matter of who charges who.

Elephants, just as chariots, are very tricky to use. But for a skilled player, they are worth every shilling you spend on them.

[Kevin]

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

[Lupu]

Yes, but OTOH, pretty much anything dies from a properly executed cataphract charge. That's what the cataphracts are for, after all. In a melee engagement between the two, the elephants win. And if the elephants charge the horsemen, the elephants win decidedly. It is more a matter of who charges who.

Elephants, just as chariots, are very tricky to use. But for a skilled player, they are worth every shilling you spend on them.

It's different if controlled by the player, the eles would simply charge and run through, killing a lot of catas, but used by the AI, it's a suicide unit. Also, they don't win against katas in mellee either, one of them charged my saka early bodyguard cavalry in loose formation, it didn't take too many casualties, and after half a minute of fighting, the eles were away, routing, running insane outside the city walls and wrecking the opposing baktrian army. Pretty lame, also I think the kataphracts have too high defense to get easily killed by an ele charge, they will suffer a few losses, and then surround the eles, murdering them.

[DaciaJC]

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

There have been suggestions to make that unit a proper phalanx in the fashion of the Makedonians. Send a PM to Aemilius Paulus if you want to know how.

[athanaric]

At first, they sound good; a barbaric faction suddenly gets a phalanx-like unit. However, I find these units to be REALLY BAD. There's only 80 of them in a unit (on large), they get easily surrounded, they spread out if not in guard mode, and when in guard mode, they suck.

Allow me to disagree on this one - being a somewhat experienced Swêboz player, I think they are actually excellent. As with all units in EB, it requires some time and practice to be able to use their full potential.

- They have excellent morale, better than any non-elite pikemen (yes, even better than Hysteroi Pezhetairoi and Chalkaspides). Morale wise, they are equal to elite Thracians and Elite African Pikemen.
- They are actually fearsome cavalry killers.
- They are, apart from the Elite Dacian Phalanx, the best line holders of any barbarian faction.
- They have the strongest charge of all pikemen.
- Their spear has an increased lethality value (0.15 instead of 0.13) which makes them actually quite decent against infantry.

Admittedly, the relatively small unit size and lack of a "special formation" as well as the missing secondary swords (which was, IIRC, dropped because of gameplay issues - they switched too often) are major drawbacks. However, these guys are still well worth the money you spend on them. Besides looking very cool.

[A Very Super Market]

You're aren't using elephants correctly. They require far more micro-management than most units, much like chariots. Said micro-management tends to consist mainly of rapidly spamming way-points and praying they don't bump into each other.

Also, since elephants can't toss cavalry into the air, they must rely on goring/trampling them or leave it to the men on top of them. So it makes cataphracts prickly business.

[Lupu]

You're aren't using elephants correctly. They require far more micro-management than most units, much like chariots. Said micro-management tends to consist mainly of rapidly spamming way-points and praying they don't bump into each other.

Also, since elephants can't toss cavalry into the air, they must rely on goring/trampling them or leave it to the men on top of them. So it makes cataphracts prickly business.

Can't say I don't know how to use elephants, it's more how the AI knows to use them, Baktria is wasting insane sums of money in my campaign on something that a depleted units of my katas kill in a charge. In my carthage campaign, I conquered half of italy with the help of the eles you get at the start, they always got the most kills, and that are the ones so many call useless.
I guess the armored elephants are an OK unit, but for 23000 mnai, you can buy 6 full Saka bodyguard cavalry, and don't let me start on the upkeep one unit costs.

[Andronikos]

Elephants aren't about cost effectivity, they are about prestige. A proper eastern emperor should have them to show off.

[antisocialmunky]

That sit behind the battleline until everyone is tried and then goto town.

[Cyclops]

Elephants aren't about cost effectivity, they are about prestige. A proper eastern emperor should have them to show off.

Nailed it. Just not cost effective but I have to have one.

Huge pwnage when you run your ele's down a line of elite AS pikes, even if 1 unti costs as much as an entire (quite servicable) second line army.

Maybe someone should do a "For the price of an armoured ele you could have built..." thread?

[Apázlinemjó]

Surprisingly bad, I tried to use them as line-infantry, then as flankers, but they always lose a lot of men and rout. Last time when I used these guys a Lugoae with 1 chevron routed them. So why are they so weak? Or do I use them in a wrong way?

[satalexton]

did u use guard mode and just have them stand there?

[Apázlinemjó]

Yeah.

[Lupu]

That's not cool for the AI, also, how is it realistic that a few elephants with added armor cost so much? Isn't this the top realism mod for RTW?

[Mediolanicus]

That's not cool for the AI, also, how is it realistic that a few elephants with added armor cost so much? Isn't this the top realism mod for RTW?

How much, do you think, does it cost to train an elephants, feed and house him while training and afterwards, feed and groom him on campaign. A few of those beast need tons of food and tens or poeple to look after them. Your logistics cost for a huge army would double just by adding 10 elephants.

[Raygereio]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...

Perhaps they do suffer a bit from having their lethal swords as primary weapons and having the less-lethal spears as secondary (in other words; in prolonged melee, they will switch to the spears).
I tend to use them to either guard my flanks against cavalry or keep them in reserve and throw them at whatever needs some extra pressure. I find them more then decent units in this role.

@Lupu; for starters an adult elephant eat somewhere around 150-250 kg worth of food per day. Then there are all the caretakers of the beasts. And check out those guys riding the elephant, they need payment and food too.

[antisocialmunky]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...

They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.

[Lupu]

Wow, that's an insane ammount of food I undrstand the price of eles now. But that doesn't explain the armoured ones.
Prices:
Elephantes Indikoi(Indian eles):
Recruitment: 13000
Upkeep: 3250

Elephantes Kataphraktoi Indikoi(Armoured indian eles):
Recruitment: 23000
Upkeep:5750

That addition of price for extra armour seems extreme.

[Cyclops]

As Pontos I'm finally seeing the worth of chariots and Theurophoroi, two units I avoided before.

...

That addition of price for extra armour seems extreme.

Its all the brasso they use keeping the armour shiny...

I imagine the armoured ones were the really strong elephants with even bigger appetites than usual.

The manufacture and upkeep of armour must have been a huge cost. Those elephant coats were't exactly pret-a-porter. Add in extra transport costs for the armour as well: I don't think any heavily armoured unit just got up in the morning and put on their full panoply for a day's march. Any souirces on how armoured troops travelled that anyone knows?

On a side note, its a shame the engine can't be stretched to feature un-armoured versions of troops for when you ambush/surprise attack them. IIRC there's a bit in Polybius where Scipio's leuitenant L-something (Laelius?) night-attacks Syphax's camp and Syphax has to run away naked: tons of his guys get cut down in their PJ's.

Anyhoo, I think the Elephants of every variety are worth their salt. I fought a hard (strict stack HR) Carthi campaign up Italy with a seperate Punic and local flavoured armies: wherever the eles went, Nike followed.

[DaciaJC]

On a side note, its a shame the engine can't be stretched to feature un-armoured versions of troops for when you ambush/surprise attack them. IIRC there's a bit in Polybius where Scipio's leuitenant L-something (Laelius?) night-attacks Syphax's camp and Syphax has to run away naked: tons of his guys get cut down in their PJ's.

The engine would first have to allow for surprise attacks in the first place: in RTW, all ambushes occur when one of the two opposing armies moves. There are no night-attacks on encampments, say.

[Apázlinemjó]

@Apázlinemjó; yeah, guard mode can be very helpfull by allowing your units to 'conserve' energy while the enemy is wearing themselves out before your lines. But remember that in guard mode they do not attack themselves, you need to give your unit an order before they actually do anything, otherwise they just stand there and die; a somewhat unfortunate side-effect...

Perhaps they do suffer a bit from having their lethal swords as primary weapons and having the less-lethal spears as secondary (in other words; in prolonged melee, they will switch to the spears).
I tend to use them to either guard my flanks against cavalry or keep them in reserve and throw them at whatever needs some extra pressure. I find them more then decent units in this role.

Since I had a little time I tested them in Custom game against Botroas. At the first try the Massilians were in guard mode and lost the battle. At the second, without guard mode, they won narrowly with 7 survivors. Then I changed the formation to loose and I was wow'ed, the Massilians killed around 80 from the Botroas while lost only 10 men. Tried it out with loose again and the same results. So I want to change my statement, they aren't bad, moreover, quite decent sword heavy infantry. However, against cavalry they tend to shift-shift between swords and spears which isn't that good when you are too busy to watch them.

[chenkai11]

I think the loose formation in RTW is bugged. IMO, with it sometimes falsely represent the ability of an unit. Like for example, I can hold a heavy cavalry charge with peltast in guard mode and loose formation. In real life, I don't think so.

[Raygereio]

They still inflict casualties jsut at a reduced rate.

Hrm, not if your units are in guard mode and you haven't given them an attack order. Then they just stand there and barely defend themselves if they are attacked.
Mind you, I haven't played on RomeTW.exe for a long time, so that could be something specific to alex.exe.

I think the loose formation in RTW is bugged.

That has more to do with the fact that the charge of cavalry is spent as soon as a single unit at the front row of the cavalry formation hits an enemy soldier. It doesn't matter if only one horse in the cavalry unit actually hits someone, the charge is gone.
I always find it somewhat funnny to see how the AI usually switches it's skirmisher units from loose to dense formation when they are about to be charged by my cavalry and thus ensures more casualties on his side.

You can also start cheesing the gameplay mechanics this way and 'catch' a cavalry charge by manouvering a unit so that a single soldier of that unit at the edge of the cavalry's path and is hit by a horse. The entire cavalry unit stops and you only loose a single solder to the charge (which is the most deadly effect of pretty much most cavalry).

[Dewirix]

Maybe someone should do a "For the price of an armoured ele you could have built..." thread?

Elephants are definitely prestige units, right up there with the 9000 upkeep poliremes.

Taking up Cyclops' challenge, for 5750 mnai you could support (prices approximate):

1 x Chaeonion Agema @ ~ 1000
1 x Pezhetairoi @ ~ 550
4 x Phalangitai Deuteroi @ ~ 1600
1 x Prodromoi @ ~ 600
1 x Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi @ ~ 500
2 x Thureophoroi @ ~ 1000
1 x Akontistai @ ~ 200
1 x FM general @ ~ 200

Total Cost: 5650 mnai/turn

Which is the core of my Epeirote royal army. All that's missing are the Toxotai Kretikoi, the Hypaspistai, the Pheraspides and, well, the Elephantes Indikoi - the most expensive 24 archers I'll ever field.

On the plus side, the fear effect is useful in encouraging elites to rout and in the right circumstances the charge is devastating.

[Kevin]

These guys were quite a suprise in my Romani campaign. I was suprised at first when they were defeating my Camillian Principes. Then, I checked their stats and wow. .225 lethality, fast, and are great skirmishers. Too bad they can only be recruited in North-easter Africa

EDIT: By the way, how do guys put up unit pictures without imageshack?

[DaciaJC]

Find the desired unit picture here (each faction has a units page), right-click on the image and click "Copy Image Location". Press this button and paste the unit-picture location.

Like so:



I didn't say a word, AP, nary a word...