America - The Freest Country?

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

"Freedom" to be a slave, that's what the illusion mostly consists of.

[Meneldil]

cha⋅os[key-os]
–noun
1. a state of utter confusion or disorder; a total lack of organization or order.
2. any confused, disorderly mass: a chaos of meaningless phrases.
3. the infinity of space or formless matter supposed to have preceded the existence of the ordered universe.
4. (initial capital letter) the personification of this in any of several ancient Greek myths.
5. Obsolete. a chasm or abyss.

Anarchy as a political state - as defined since the 18th century - obviously refers to the lack of governement (or to the lack of state). Not to general disorder. I think you know this already, but since you decided to use dictionary and what not.

Even people from the World Bank (which could hardly be described as a leftist agency) describe Somalia as being in a state of chaos rather than in a state of anarchy.

Oh but in practical ways, it is and there is no way around it. By strongest I mean obviously the most capable.

I beg to disagree. The second Paris Commune wasn't ruled by the strongest or by the more capable, and I think the same applies to the anarcho-syndicalist communes of the Spanish civil war era. As those are more or less the only example of applied anarchism we have, I can't see where you got the idea that anarchy = chaos.
Note that I don't think anarchism proved to be efficient, or to be a possible political state. I'm just sayin' it's not simply rule of the strongest or chaos.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Americans tend to conflate the terms anarchy and chaos. That too goes pretty far back in our "national myth" since we view the early Confederation days as having been too problematic.

Freedom in the USA is mostly freedom "from" as it was put ealier.

Our freedoms are mostly encoded as limitations ON government rather than specific assertions of rights. You aren't really granted the freedom TO do very much, so much as the government is prevented from infringing on your ability to do what you want.


Interestingly, the right TO keep and bear arms is a "to" statement.

[Beskar]

As Meneldil said, it's just a national myth... A myth that goes a long way back, when people were slaves and/or were treated as second class citizens because of their colour, ancestry, religion etc..

Just for information, America brought freedom and equality long after the British did and Britain were the ones who dismantled the slave trade and the practise of slavery.

[Mooks]

?

So that it can pay for them instead of them paying for themselves???

Look at the deficit and how much it is increasing, I really doubt the government really cares about that.

[HoreTore]

Americans tend to conflate the terms anarchy and chaos. That too goes pretty far back in our "national myth" since we view the early Confederation days as having been too problematic.

But.... Doesn't relatively many americans define themselves as libertarians?

Anarchy, as a political term, simply means not having a government. What you put in place of it defines your brand of anarchism, it could be unions, extended family units, militias, etc.

But then again, american libertarians seems to enjoy putting people in prison, while a true anarchist would have an extreme hatred against putting anyone in prison....

[LittleGrizzly]

On the point about Prisons in America they do have privately operated prisons which (not sure about this bit) have thier value based on the amount of prisnors they have... (as the goverment pays per prisnor)

So privately owned prisons certainly want more prisnors then all you need is a corrupt officail (or campaign contributions as thier called) and all of a sudden a crack down starts and thier rolling in money....

I watched an intresting documentary called the drug war the last white hope and it talks about alot of this stuff...

[SwordsMaster]

It isn't a good idea to confuse anarchy and liberty.

Don't confuse freedom with independence either. A 17th century frenchman had less freedom but more independence than a 21st century London City financier.

It's a balancing act. A fun fact, the European country with most legislation text is actually Spain. It is also the european country where less legislation is enforced as a percentage of the total. As usual, quality and quantity do not go hand in hand.

I would have a lot more respect for a government which enforced a very small amount of legislation rigidly and without exception than Spain.

Personal freedoms-wise, well, we're getting less and less. In that sense Somalia probably is the freeest place on the planet.

[LittleGrizzly]

ohh forgot about that...

Well the context of the discussion seemed to be focused on how much our goverments interfere with our lives... so Somalia would obviously win in that regard...

If you are talking about freedom to live an enjoyable life with little goverment interference we would have to look at things such as crime figures as well, maybe even health as well (UHC for the win )

[HoreTore]

Well the context of the discussion seemed to be focused on how much our goverments interfere with our lives... so Somalia would obviously win in that regard...

Uhm..... The Somalian warlords don't interfere with the lives of their underlings?

[SwordsMaster]

Uhm..... The Somalian warlords don't interfere with the lives of their underlings?

Not particularly. If you have a gun you can try and establish your own territory. To be honest, I don't even know what they're fighting for up there anymore. I don't think they know either.

[CountArach]

No country's citizens are free. They still have an oppressive apparatus looking over them their entire life.

Ah well.

[LittleGrizzly]

Uhm..... The Somalian warlords don't interfere with the lives of their underlings?

True I guess, I mean aslong as you don't bother them (or you aren't unwillingly of some use to them) your pretty free to do what you want

Im guessing the laws would be something like don't harm me or my guys or steal from me or my guys, outside of involuntary recruitment (i would think they volunteer being penniless anyway) maybe forced seizure of property as well but again our countrys take property too (admittedly they usually compensate people for it)

Although ill admit I don't know much of the Somalian warlords domestic policys...

[Lemur]

I think we should all take a quick scan of Hume's work on this subject, Leviathan, for a refresher on just how much infrastructure "freedom" requires.

In such condition there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

[HoreTore]

I mean aslong as you don't bother them (or you aren't unwillingly of some use to them) your pretty free to do what you want

Im guessing the laws would be something like don't harm me or my guys or steal from me or my guys, outside of involuntary recruitment (i would think they volunteer being penniless anyway) maybe forced seizure of property as well but again our countrys take property too (admittedly they usually compensate people for it)

Although ill admit I don't know much of the Somalian warlords domestic policys...

No, that's wrong. the various warlords, militas etc are best viewed as different governments fighting each other. And as for the laws? It's martial law.

[naut]

Hmm, Andorra springs to mind.

[Ironside]

On the point about Prisons in America they do have privately operated prisons which (not sure about this bit) have thier value based on the amount of prisnors they have... (as the goverment pays per prisnor)

So privately owned prisons certainly want more prisnors then all you need is a corrupt officail (or campaign contributions as thier called) and all of a sudden a crack down starts and thier rolling in money....

I watched an intresting documentary called the drug war the last white hope and it talks about alot of this stuff...

Private prisons are only a few % of the total US prison population. While propably not helping (due to the reasons you described) it has more to do with the war one drugs combined with "tough on crimes"= long prison sentances, "personal responsibillity"=there's no such thing as structural societal problems that causes crimes and "prisons a rehability centers"= what kind of whacky lefty ideas is this? Prisons should be punishment centers that you fear not some freaking R&R.


As I hinted about in the other thread, as there's such a thing as too much freedom, how does good freedom look like?

[Husar]

No, that's wrong. the various warlords, militas etc are best viewed as different governments fighting each other. And as for the laws? It's martial law.

Are they accepted as national governments by the UN/other countries? Concerning laws, there is also marital law in which a man becomes slave to a woman, or so I read constantly on this here internet, it applies to many western countries.

Pure freedom is hardly reachable, you'd have to grow wings and gills and be able to survive in space to get that(as it is we're slaves to our technical machines once we go there ) and that's just for freedom of movement, one of the many areas of freedom.

[Peasant Phill]

What about Sealand and the likes as the most free country?

[Viking]

Pure freedom is hardly reachable,

Existence is a compromise.

[Fragony]

What about Sealand and the likes as the most free country?

We will see when a country called Sealand starts existing

[HoreTore]

We will see when a country called Sealand starts existing

They must exist, they invade northern Norway almost every year...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Freedom doesn't mean anything.

As the other topic pointed out, each individual has is own view of freedom. For one, it's the right to bear arms, for the other, it's the right to have an abortion, for yet another person, it's the right to believe in a religion.
[...]
What I'm saying is that the myth of the the US as the most free state in the world is just another national myth, which really has little ground. Just like France (which is in many ways a country similar to the US) likes to present herself as the country of the Human Rights (tm), and as history shown us, this is quite a big joke.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Freedom is relative, it depends a good deal on what one considers freedom.

If I have a definition, I'll give an answer to the question of whether America is the most free - as measured by that definition.


In absolute terms, applying a gut definition of freedom: for all its imperfections, America has been remarkably succesful in providing a better life, for more of its citizens, for a longer period of time, than, let's say: 'a whole host of other countries who broadly apply the same definitions of succes and freedom as the US'.

[Tribesman]

Freedom is relative

So that means west virginia must be the most free place on earth, after all if its all relative its all free

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4594392/

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think we should all take a quick scan of Hume's work on this subject, Leviathan, for a refresher on just how much infrastructure "freedom" requires.

That be Hobbes work, managed to get him in the bad books of both sides in the civil war.

I beg to disagree. The second Paris Commune wasn't ruled by the strongest or by the more capable, and I think the same applies to the anarcho-syndicalist communes of the Spanish civil war era. As those are more or less the only example of applied anarchism we have, I can't see where you got the idea that anarchy = chaos.

How much of that is due to the fact that the existing social structures never had time to be properly dismantled?

[Lemur]

That be Hobbes work, managed to get him in the bad books of both sides in the civil war.

The sad thing is I knew that and still typed Hume. Entirely my bad, apologies.

[Samurai Waki]

I'm tired of Americans who have never been to other parts of the world (and likewise people who have never been to America) who like to say "America is the freest country on earth" it's juvenile. Freedom is an entirely subjective term, depending on whose saying it. Yes, we're definitely one of the freest countries on the planet, but no more than many others. I'm inclined to agree with Husar, the system has flaws, lots and lots of flaws, but maybe it attempts better than most to strike a balance between Economic, Judiciary, and Civic Freedoms. I however wouldn't say, that it's the best system for everybody, and begs a deeper question, what is freedom, exactly?

[Fragony]

I'm tired of Americans who have never been to other parts of the world (and likewise people who have never been to America)

Not sure you placed the brackets right. Educated americans usually think too highly of Europe for whatever reason no idea. Let's take France for example, ask the average Frenchmen to point out a random European country he/she/french will have no idea. Met some francaises who didn't even know germans speak german, one was a doctor the other was an architect.

[Samurai Waki]

Not sure you placed the brackets right. Educated americans usually think too highly of Europe for whatever reason no idea.

I believe you're right, actually, I know you're right (I have several members in my family that follow this exact line of thought). It's an elitist view, that Europeans, and their culture are far more enlightened than the otherwise brutish, and dim Americans. There's also quite a few Europeans, who themselves believe in this superiority. I could give an example, of an Orgah who seems to think this, but I'm sure you already know who it is (and it's not Louis) . But this nothing new, it's been going on for centuries.

Although, I think your example highlights a human flaw, and not one that is strictly American or European.

[LittleGrizzly]

I don't think its just America... some people in Britian cast jealous glances towards the mainland thinking of us as loutish thugs...

I would think among the majority of the population Americans are less likely to be like that being the worlds superpower... Im sure the British thought themselves something special back in the day...