The Wehrmacht, History, Myth, Reality

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This is the reality to anyone who's actually done some reading of unbiased sources. You can't tell this to the quasi-Nazi sympathizers at TWC though, they will defend 'til death the myth that 99% of Wehrmacht soldiers were "innocent Germans just doing their duty." And of course many were, but the Wehrmacht as a whole is severely tainted.

Many were, many were not. To a greater or lesser extent, every army is the same. I don't see why people try to argue it.

[Brenus]

“To a greater or lesser extent, every army is the same. I don't see why people try to argue it.” Yes and no. We speak here of the involvement of the Werhmacht in a process which crossed the usual borders. No other organised armies did support logistically and proceeded to execution in such scale.
The High Command did nothing to prevent or even ignored orders to execute prisoners, civilians and minorities. It was left to the individual soldiers, NCO and low rank officers to obeys/disobey to orders, without the moral support of their officers in charge.
The mass execution by the Werhmacht in France can not be put on the heavy fight, as the Germans won quite easily the campaign, excepted few battles and pockets of resistance. The Plan worked and France had to surrender, the main armies cup from their logistical point and made useless. And the British had to evacuate…
So, the Wermacht as an entity was guilty in the choice of high level of violence and cruelty.
In France as in Poland, the SS were not so many…

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yes and no. We speak here of the involvement of the Werhmacht in a process which crossed the usual borders. No other organised armies did support logistically and proceeded to execution in such scale.

That is, quite frankly, untrue or half-true at best.

The High Command did nothing to prevent or even ignored orders to execute prisoners, civilians and minorities.

So members of High Command did ignore orders to execute prisoners? Glad we agree. Though, for the record, High Command was often a bastion of resistance against Hitler.

So, the Wermacht as an entity was guilty in the choice of high level of violence and cruelty.
In France as in Poland, the SS were not so many…

The Wehrmacht did participate, and indeed, was heavily involved in war crimes and illegal actions, but I disagree that the organization itself was inherently bad, just as I would disagree that the Red Army was inherently bad.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Is the Waffen SS inherently bad?

[Graphic]

Many were, many were not. To a greater or lesser extent, every army is the same. I don't see why people try to argue it.

Even in a very messy modern war like Vietnam there's no evidence that G.I.'s went on an organized campaign of slaughter of the civilian populous. War is a messy business period, but the Wehrmacht was exceptional in its brutality in modern times.

[Brenus]

“So members of High Command did ignore orders to execute prisoners? Glad we agree”. No. Read the sentence: Ignore did nothing to prevent or ignore.
They choose to at best remain silent when they received the orders to kill Political Commissars and Jews.

“the Red Army was inherently bad.” I was waiting for this. The comparison between the Red Army and the Werhmacht: Indeed the treatment by the Red Army of German population was far from civilised. However find one example of massive execution by machine gun of civilian population? Few organised convoys of elderly, children and women machine-gunned in some dark woods. A specific order issued from the STAVKA to kill and to show no mercy to a particular type of German soldiers or personnel.
And quite frankly, what the German would have expected after THEY started a war of extermination where the open goal was to either kill or enslave the Slavic population. When the open aim of Hitler Germany was to starve Leningrad to death.
They knew what Hitler intended to do, because he broadcasted it.
So what the Russian soldier had to do? Ok, guy, you raped my sisters, daughters, mothers, you hanged my grad dad, my uncles because they were who they were, you torched my houses and wanted to enslave me but yeah, I understand, war is bad…

“Is the Waffen SS inherently bad?” Yes. Don’t try to separate the Waffen SS from the SS in the camps. They were belonging to the same organisation, the same ideological basis.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Well, I was asking EMFM to see if I could get more insight into his viewpoint.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Is the Waffen SS inherently bad?

Oh yes. I'm not saying that the Wehrmacht wasn't rather exceptionally worse than most or all other armies of the time period, mind you.

“So members of High Command did ignore orders to execute prisoners? Glad we agree”. No. Read the sentence: Ignore did nothing to prevent or ignore.

Your original sentence was unclear, I was just trying to point that out.

They choose to at best remain silent when they received the orders to kill Political Commissars and Jews.

This is true, High Command often did ignore orders or even carry them out willingly, especially after Hitler staffed it with his cronies.

However find one example of massive execution by machine gun of civilian population? Few organised convoys of elderly, children and women machine-gunned in some dark woods. A specific order issued from the STAVKA to kill and to show no mercy to a particular type of German soldiers or personnel.

Are you willfully ignoring things that happened? Not just to the German population either, but to the Poles? Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians? Even Finns? The Cossacks? That last one is kind of a big one, isn't it?

No, the Red Army and her associated acts were certainly criminal. Germany wasn't even the main recipient of their wrath.

And quite frankly, what the German would have expected after THEY started a war of extermination where the open goal was to either kill or enslave the Slavic population. When the open aim of Hitler Germany was to starve Leningrad to death.

What Germany did in the Soviet Union was cruel and needless. That being said, the French didn't commit crimes nearly on the scale that the Soviets did (or even on a proportionate basis to losses), and certainly didn't kill people en masse in countries formerly occupied by their enemies, so you cannot say that the retaliation was "normal."

We agree that Germany did terrible things in the East, but what you're implying is that German civilians back home somehow deserved it, or "got what was coming to them."

[Brenus]

“Are you wilfully ignoring things that happened? Not just to the German population either, but to the Poles? Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians? Even Finns? The Cossacks? That last one is kind of a big one, isn't it?”
Ok, you got a point.
But it as far as I know, it was not base on ethnicities but as traitors, or seen as this. I don’t think that Stalin treated Russian differently when his power was challenged. This is what made Nazism specific. You could try to be a good German as much you wanted, as a Jew you had no luck.
The Cossacks from the Red Army were not executed. I do agree that the slaughter of the Cossack given back by the British is a war/peace crime, but it was not done under racial or ethnic base but as retaliation for rebellion. Except for the Finns (allied of the Germans) all the others groups provided SS divisions, zealous auxiliaries and participated enthusiastically to the chase of the Jews…
The Crimean Tatars were deported, what left of the Cossack (from the Don if my memory serves me) as well, but no special camps with annihilation as goals were built. The Cossacks from the Volga were not touched. No special troops were formed (even if the NKVD were probably up the level).
What made the Werhmacht (the Command) guilty is their obedience to orders they knew were not according what the school of Officers taught them. What makes them guilty is they waited until the defeat to rebel and Rommel being one of the examples.

“but what you're implying is that German civilians back home somehow deserved it, or "got what was coming to them”
Nope. What I am saying is they saw it coming because they knew what theirs fathers, sons and brothers did to the Russians. You don’t have the same exodus in front of the Western Allies because we had Tulles, Oradour sur Glane and others excesses (killing of hostages, rapes, torching houses etc) but it was nothing compared what happened in the East or Balkans.

“countries formerly occupied by their enemies” and collaborated with the occupiers:
For the examples you chose:
20 SS Estonian Division
19 SS Latvian Division
Lithuania: It is estimated that at least 125,000 Lithuanians rose up to fight the retreating Soviets during the time between the initial German crossings of the eastern frontier.
The vast majority of the Cossacks stayed loyal to USSR even if they were anti-communist.
Concerning Poland I found Kathyn and Warsaw. The second one was not directly done by the Red Army but by some said stopping the offensive. True or not, it was not the Russian who did it but the SS and the Werhmacht.
It is true that in 1944 the NKVD executed potential political enemies, even if they were resistant. However, once again, it was based on political agenda, not on racial.

The French had their own retaliation against the Milicians and Collaborators, and it was ugly. Some even say it is the latest French Civil War.
A French SS couldn't really expect mercy or a fair trial. Later on yes, but on the spot...
Then came the "les Malgrés nous" problems, teh Alsatians enroled in the Werhmact and the SS. A fomer colleague of mine uncle was forced in the SS and this was aproblem especially for the ones who were involevd in war criems as Tulles.

[KrooK]

Gah and you guys talking about Red Army still forget that before 1941 Germany and Russia cooperated closely. Both sides killed or settled into Workuta (for me workuta gold mine and death camp is exactly the same thing) hundreds thousands of Poles.

USSR in addition did it with many Ukrainians and Balts. Long time before ww2 they started great hunger on Ukraine - real holocaust. Objective was "kill all the people, no matter what they think about communism".

Brenus is right that people of many countries occupied by Russians started fight on German side.
However it was not due to "better race" idea. They just hate Russians. People started killing Jews because most of Jews helped russians into 1939 - 1941. Many Jews simply betrayed their countries (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania) - they joined NKWD and helped into sending their neighbours to Russia.
Thats why at far east people started killing them.
A bit different situation was in Poland because (as I wrote at the beginning) here both sides participated into killing Poles. Thats why people did not join Germans. Sometimes they killed some Jews (actually confirmed is only Jedwabne) but it was not massively attack. Not like jewish behavior into 1939.

Brenus - Warsaw was not done directly by Red Army. Red Army only called Poles to rise against Germans and promised help. Then just waited patiently (and later killed many of survivors). And of course we can't forget Russians from RONA who were commiting extreme cruel crimes on civilians. Maybe I'm a bit vindictive but I don't regret Russians from RONA and Cossacks sent to Russia. And add here at least 200.000 polish patriots murdered by NKWD and polish-jewish traitors after ww2.

To reply your question - by whole existence of USSR situation of Russians and national minorities was different. I'm not talking that situation of Russians were good - but was much better than others.

Nope. What I am saying is they saw it coming because they knew what theirs fathers, sons and brothers did to the Russians. You don’t have the same exodus in front of the Western Allies because we had Tulles, Oradour sur Glane and others excesses (killing of hostages, rapes, torching houses etc) but it was nothing compared what happened in the East or Balkans.

And here I completely agree with you.

[Sarmatian]

Objective was "kill all the people, no matter what they think about communism".

And squirrels! Don't forget the squirrels...

[Brenus]

“still forget that before 1941 Germany and Russia cooperated closely”. I don’t but for this instance it has no link with the present debate.

“for me”: That is the point.

“Long time before ww2 they started great hunger on Ukraine - real holocaust” Debatable and again not relevant with this debate.

“However it was not due to "better race" idea”. Agree, However, in the Russian point of view, if you are able to see it, it was pure betraying. The fact that these countries joined the Germans in hope to be free is even worst in Stalin eyes, I would think.

“Many Jews simply betrayed their countries (Poland, Latvia, Lithuania)” Ahh, you pure anti-Semitic guys, are always funny.
You stripped the Jews of their rights, you said (and say) they are not Poles, not Ukrainians, not French, ban them for jobs, obliged them to live in determined area, then complain, oopps, they are not loyal to a country which rejects them, ooops, they never join the Arm forces the cowards, they don’t mixed with the others and they marry only between themselves. As the good slaves owners who portraitures his slaves as ignorant and not knowing to read and write when he outlaws them to go to school…
“In August 1936, the Polish government ordered that all shops include the name of the owner on their business sign. This order was tantamount to specifically marking Jewish-owned businesses. Attacks on Jewish businesses surged after the marking order went into effect.
In May 1937, the membership of the Polish Medical Association adopted a paragraph into their professional charter excluding Jews from the medical profession.
Also in May 1937, the Polish Bar Association adopted a similar measure. This was followed by official state action in May 1938 restricting the ability of Jewish lawyers to attain licenses to practice law.
In January 1938, the General Assembly of Journalists in the city of Wilno added a provision to its by-laws stating that anyone Jewish could not belong to their organization.
In April 1938, the Bank Polski, the Polish state's largest financial institution, adopted a provision excluding Jews.
Most importantly, in March 1938 the Polish government announced a new "Citizenship Law." This law stated that as of October 30, 1938, the passports of Polish citizens who had lived abroad for more than five years would be revoked if those citizens had not "maintained contact with the [home] country”

Most of the times, it was their country that betrayed the Jews.
In France Pétain took from the Jewish Officers the medals he gave them at Verdun. Shame on the countries; shame on these official who signed these documents; shame on the mobs that took advantage. Shame on those who enforced these laws.
Honour on the ones who saved the Jews, the humbles and the illiterates who knew what is right and what is wrong and knew that all bloods are red...

At least you can’t blame the Red Army to be Anti-Semitic….

“Sometimes they killed some Jews”:
The Polish Government put in place Racial Laws in a process starting in 1935!!!!! .
“In August 1936, the Polish government ordered that all shops include the name of the owner on their business sign. This order was tantamount to specifically marking Jewish-owned businesses. Attacks on Jewish businesses surged after the marking order went into effect.
“Starting in early 1935, boycotts of Jews spread all through the Polish countryside. These were followed by pogroms: window-smashing, the overturning of Jewish market stalls, beatings, arson, and finally murder. The details of these brutalities are repetitive and terrible.
In 1935 pogroms took place at Radomsko in April, at Radosc (near Warsaw) and Grochow in May, at Grodno in May. In December [1935] these isolated occurrences began to harden into a campaign: disturbances in Klwow, Lodz, Katowice, Kielce, and Hrubieszow were followed in January 1936 by attacks on Jews in Cracow and Warsaw, among other places.
On March 9, 1936, a terrible pogrom occurred at Przytyk, where two Jews were killed and many houses burned: Bombs were thrown in those same months in 13 more towns, including Minsk Mazowiecki; there a second pogrom occurred in early June and, after four Jews had been killed, most of the Jewish population left for Warsaw.
During 1936 and early 1937 the pogroms became a daily occurrence in Poland, and clearly indicated increasingly better organisation”
“Several times the Jews reacted by demonstrations and general strikes (March 1936, May and June 1937). In Warsaw and Lodz the Bund tried to create Jewish self-defence units. These were supported by PPS as well, but police intervention in favour of the pogromists”

So populace killed. The police protected killers. Who is responsible? Polish Government.

“I'm not talking that situation of Russians were good - but was much better than others” They were awake by the KGB one hour later and they had comfy cells at the Lubianka? Or a 1st class gulag?

“Warsaw was not done directly by Red Army. Red Army only called Poles to rise against Germans and promised help. Then just waited patiently (and later killed many of survivors)” True, partially true. The raise to arms by the Polish Secret Army was indeed called by the Russians, but it was obvious that the Poles in London, pro Western Allies wanted to do so for political reason that Stain fully understood. A Poland liberated by itself it would be independent, and Stalin didn’t want this to happened.
What we always forget about Communism is all was subordinated to politic and long-term effect. Stalin knew the Germans were defeated, so why to rush and to get a future problem at your borders. For some reasons, the Westerns Generals and Politicians never saw things like this.
Stalin was politically aware…
Look what happened with Tito. So, in Stalin eyes, it would be politically suicidal to help a Pro-Western Rebellion and to get a potential if not enemy but hostile force on your borders, even worst if you know that YOU attack this potential hostile force yourselves few years ago, and killed many of it intelligentsia…
About killing look what happened to the Russian German’s POW in 1941 when they were liberated by the Allies… No better…

[Brenus]

"And squirrels! Don't forget the squirrels" The Red ones or the Grey ones? Probably the Reds!!!!

[HunGeneral]

“However it was not due to "better race" idea”. Agree, However, in the Russian point of view, if you are able to see it, it was pure betraying. The fact that these countries joined the Germans in hope to be free is even worst in Stalin eyes, I would think.

In my opinion Stalin saw anyone and anything that didn't support him as an enemy or traitor. (a political slogan of the east-block countries commie leadership in the 50-s: "who isn't wiht us is against us") Would this also explain why Stalin ordered several thousand Polish POV to be executed in secret in the area of Katyn and have their families who were living in the Soviet occupied zone of Poland sent right away to Siberia (and also making anybody "disapear" if he even guestioned that the Germans were behind it)?

Honour on the ones who saved the Jews, the humbles and the illiterates who knew what is right and what is wrong

I agree. Honour all who tried to stop or resist the dictatorical madness of the 20th century. No matter his nationality, origin or social standing.

At least you can’t blame the Red Army to be Anti-Semitic….

Yes, but you can't claim they weren't cruel either and I don't just mean the atrocities in Germany or against Germans in the east, but there general cruelty in the countries they occupied - it may not have been as large scale and brutal as against the Germans but it was there and had it effects.

"I'm not talking that situation of Russians were good - but was much better than others” They were awake by the KGB one hour later and they had comfy cells at the Lubianka? Or a 1st class gulag?

The Soviet communist regime declared its enemies not by Nationality but on who was willing to submit to them and who wasnt. The later could be anyone, even leading party members could easely fall out of Stalins favor or become suspicious and that didn't mean anything good. The same often aplied to whole peoples - for example the Ukrainians were for the most part seen as "suspicious" by the Soviets so they considered them all "potential traitors" no matter what his background was.

“Warsaw was not done directly by Red Army. Red Army only called Poles to rise against Germans and promised help. Then just waited patiently (and later killed many of survivors)” True, partially true. The raise to arms by the Polish Secret Army was indeed called by the Russians, but it was obvious that the Poles in London, pro Western Allies wanted to do so for political reason that Stain fully understood. A Poland liberated by itself it would be independent, and Stalin didn’t want this to happened.
What we always forget about Communism is all was subordinated to politic and long-term effect. Stalin knew the Germans were defeated, so why to rush and to get a future problem at your borders. For some reasons, the Westerns Generals and Politicians never saw things like this.
Stalin was politically aware…
Look what happened with Tito. So, in Stalin eyes, it would be politically suicidal to help a Pro-Western Rebellion and to get a potential if not enemy but hostile force on your borders, even worst if you know that YOU attack this potential hostile force yourselves few years ago, and killed many of it intelligentsia…
About killing look what happened to the Russian German’s POW in 1941 when they were liberated by the Allies… No better…

Political interrests of great powers - thats all. The same thing as in 1956: the USA uses all propaganda to convince the Peoles of Eastern Europe to rise against the Communist Puppet Regimes promising full support, but when they did rise up, the Americans stayed quiet and simply watched the Massacre....

All along the way Stalin was working on making sure that all countries his armies "liberated" would be lead by communist he assigned and made sure noone could oppose his plans - After Jalta when the Allies agreed to land in France and let the Ruskies keep East Europe he coud do what he wanted. Churchill did'nt want things to go that way because he knew that were the russians set there foot in there they wouldn't come out by themselfs...

(He was right in atleast that - here they needed 50 years just to find the way out...)

[KrooK]

“In August 1936, the Polish government ordered that all shops include the name of the owner on their business sign. This order was tantamount to specifically marking Jewish-owned businesses. Attacks on Jewish businesses surged after the marking order went into effect.
In May 1937, the membership of the Polish Medical Association adopted a paragraph into their professional charter excluding Jews from the medical profession.
Also in May 1937, the Polish Bar Association adopted a similar measure. This was followed by official state action in May 1938 restricting the ability of Jewish lawyers to attain licenses to practice law.
In January 1938, the General Assembly of Journalists in the city of Wilno added a provision to its by-laws stating that anyone Jewish could not belong to their organization.
In April 1938, the Bank Polski, the Polish state's largest financial institution, adopted a provision excluding Jews.
Most importantly, in March 1938 the Polish government announced a new "Citizenship Law." This law stated that as of October 30, 1938, the passports of Polish citizens who had lived abroad for more than five years would be revoked if those citizens had not "maintained contact with the [home] country”

Sorry maybe some sources? I think I can reply to first part because because its connected with my job.
First part is stupid. It was simply theory of "trader" into polish law. Into 1934 new Code of Obligations and Commercial Code were enacted. These monuments of law were one of the best in the world. They adopted germany understanding of trader and due to them name of personal company had to include name of at least one man personally responsible for its obligations (to protect consuments). You are looking for racism into place where is no racism. I'm not sure but similar regulations are into german law. Man who connected it with racism had to be politically corrected idiot (especially as you wrote regulation obeyed everyone). Nowadays we have very similar regulations no one claim they are bad.

Some of best lawyers in Poland were Jews. Same like doctors. Tell me any source you found it (wikipedia does not count as source) - best would be english language.

I don't understand how revoking passports could be against Jews living in Poland.

[Brenus]

“name of personal company had to include name of at least one man personally responsible for its obligations (to protect consuments)” How? Didn’t notice that Orange or NatWest are M and Ms.

“Man who connected it with racism had to be politically corrected idiot” or a man who se the reality and the consequence of a racist legislation on the daily life of the intended targets.
About link, just google Poland anti Semitic law 1934, (for Poland 1934 you’ve got German Pact with Poland). It is very interesting.

“Nowadays we have very similar regulations no one claim they are bad. “ M & MM Barcley, Sainsbury, Carrefour etc… Right….

[KrooK]

Brenus - I expected that you don't know law (especially polish) but... don't behave like idiot and don't teach me poslih law if you really don't know it.

In Polish law there are two kind of persons - psyhical person (man) and law person (some of companies). There is something like semi law person (ulomna osoba prawna).
Companies are divided on personal companies and capital companies. Into every name of personal company there must be name of at least one of men personally responsible for its obligations (as I wrote). Same with one-person-companies (someone is trading but on his own - without any partners).

Name of capital company is free (because its different person than its partners) but must have "sp. z o.o." or "s.a." included - to show everyone what kind of person it is.

And to reply you stupid examples - ORANGE is not a company. Its trade mark - company is called (I think) PTK Centertel Sp. z o.o. - capital company. Carrefours is trade mark - company is called Carrefour Poland sp. z o.o.
And M & MM Barcley, Sainsbury - whats that:) Never heard about it.

To explain more (looks like you can understand only German examples) we call something Siemens but its not full name of that company. Similar regulations are into Germans - I think you got something like AG or similar (German words are unable to speak by normal people :) ).

And talkin about link - do you believe everything into internet. If I put here link to www.brenusis(*&)()(*@#$.com - would you believe you are "(*&)()(*@#$".
Child of neostrada!!!!!

[Louis VI the Fat]

My dear Brenus! How I always admire your unwavering battle for the truth!


Might as well throw in:

Destruction of the Jewish existence in Poland 1929-1939]

[5.2. Discrimination and murderous pogroms in anti-Semitic Poland 1935-1939]

[Discrimination of Jews in Poland is harsher than in the Third Reich]

The economic problems, which will be discussed below, were accompanied by a growing crescendo of physical attacks by anti-Semitic elements on the Jewish population. At times these attacks tended to overshadow the dismal poverty into which the Jewish masses were sinking. The physical attacks were accompanied by acts of deliberate discrimination that equaled, and often exceeded, the steps taken by Germany's Nazis at that time.

Whole list of anti-Semitic measures in semi-fascist pre-war Poland:
http://www.geschichteinchronologie.c...1939-ENGL.html

[KrooK]

For this "masterpiece" suggesting that Poland was worse for Jews than Germany I can reply only:

21.03.1933 - Himmler ordered to build KL Dachau.

Right - deathcamps must have been perfect place for Jews. Much better than Poland. Nothing strange that so many French jews were catched and sent to KL Auschwitz by french police. Yep - now I understand.

[Early 1939: Poland: Deportations of Jews from the frontier towns]

In early 1939 Jews were forced to leave certain frontier towns because they were considered to be unreliable elements - as though Jews were less interested in resistance to the Germans than were the Poles. In this connection "almost one-quarter of the Jewish population of Gdynia was deported". At Katowice it was "feared that half the local Jewish population may be forced to emigrate elsewhere."

Many Jews were unreliable elements. They helped USSR.

(End note 13: See note 11 [R61, February 1939])

[1939: Anti-Semitism also in Western and Northwestern Poland]
Riots, pogroms, and boycotts now spread to areas in western and northwestern Poland, where the number of Jews was very small; up till then these areas had been spared from excesses.

Hmm - interesting that into Western and North-Western Poland lived most of German minority.
With political views very similar to the ones at Germany.

Internet source is bad source. Unreriable. And even if - its from 1974. Poland had very bad PR that time. And Jewish sources before 80ties were very far from "honest".

[Conradus]

Many Jews were unreliable elements. They helped USSR.

Considering they were deported by their anti-semitic government, they might have had some reason to do that, no?

Do mind though, the whole of Europe was anti-semitic pre-WWII. Germany "just" pushed it further than all the others.

[KrooK]

Conradus
they were deported because were unreliable (of course if they were deported - basement is quotation from unreliable source) not they were unreliable because were deported.
Into 1938 USSR dispanded Communist Party of Poland (group of terrorist claiming themselves polish revolutionists). Practically all of members were Jews or Belarussians. Generally unreliable element.

Most of jewish community remain loyal to country. But big, visible part betrayed Poland which is out of discussion too.

[Brenus]

“Nothing strange that so many French jews were catched and sent to KL Auschwitz by french police. Yep - now I understand.”
No you don’t. I don’t deny it. I don’t deny that a big part of the French Aristocracy and bourgeoisie (Maurras) was anti-Semitic. The laws taken by Pétain were worst than the Germans. He even took these laws without any request from the Germans.

As I said, France betrayed the Jews. France, her government at the time, betrayed the Jewish officers, NCO and soldiers who fought against the Germans in WW1. Pétain betrayed the Jewish who believed in France as the country which was the first one to gave them freedom and equality.
This is the honour of France:
Message from General de Gaulle to Rabbi Dr. Stephen Wise, President of the World Jewish Congress, New York (4th of October 1941):
On the occasion of the 150th anniversary of the emancipation of the Jews of France, I hereby confirm to you the policy of liberated France towards all Frenchmen.
The famous decree concerning the emancipation of the Jews of France, as well as the Proclamation of the Rights of Man and Citizens, is still in effect and cannot be repealed by the men of Vichy.
In fact, we consider the changes made to the Constitution and to French Law by the so-called Vichy Government, whose origins and actions are unconstitutional and illegal, to be null and void.
LIBERATED FRANCE, which, respects the Constitution and the Laws of the Republic wherever it exerts power, is determined to restore, once victory is achieved, the equality - in dignity and in deed - of all of the citizens on French soil.

“21.03.1933 - Himmler ordered to build KL Dachau”: For political opponents, mainly Communists and Socialists. Who were Jews according to you? And in 1934, Poland signed a Friendship Treaty with Germany…

“They helped USSR” Wonder why if the Polish treated them like this? Any way, they were not Polish according to the 1934 Poland…
You know of course it is pure….

By the way, Carrefour is a French Supermarcket. I was shopping there when Poland was still communist.

"Never heard about it": English shops.

[KrooK]

By the way, Carrefour is a French Supermarcket. I was shopping there when Poland was still communist.

To start from end (sorry but better is explaining small misunderstandings first) Carrefour is great worldwide corporation. It has its companies all over the world. In Poland it is Carrefour Polska sp. z o.o., which of course is part of Carrefour corporation.

Jews started being sent to Dachau very fast. Remember that this KL was boot camp for crews of other death camps - they need Jews (I think is sound terrible but its truth) to practise.

Any way, they were not Polish according to the 1934 Poland…

Sorry but really don't understand what you mean. Really. Could you explain what you mean?

Locarno was much more helpful for Germany than non-agression pact from 1934.
I won't even tell about Munich 1938.

And you should not use English shops as examples - Anglo-American law system is completely different than European. Good comparison would be with France, Germany or Italy.

And yes - Jews helped USSR. First time into polish-russian war 1919-1921. Then during agression 1939 and occupation 1939-1941. And later into years 1944-1956. Not all of them, rather minority - but visible minority. You can't blame all Frenchmen for sending Jews to deathcamps. Minority did it - but visible minority. Same was with Jews - visible minority betrayed their motherland.

Ahh I would forgot. Before ww2 Jews in Poland had special prerogative that made their situation much better than any other minorities. Better than Poles. They could organise associations and foundation without permission of Minister of Inner Affairs. These law persons could do any activity not prohibited by law. And thats why most of fathers of Israel became trained in Poland.

[Brenus]

“Could you explain what you mean?” It is what you are saying: The Poles and the Jews. You make a difference between them as in the Poles and the Russians, the Poles and the Germans. So, if the Jews are not Poles, why should they be loyal to a country that didn’t considered them as citizens?
Locarno (1925) was indeed helpful to Germany but was signed with the Weimar Republic, not with Adolph Hitler. Locarno Treaty was to welcome back Germany as a friendly nation by her former enemies… It didn’t help Hitler’s Germany to rearm…

[KrooK]

Locarno Treaty was to welcome back Germany as a friendly nation by her former enemies

Yes- shortly speaking France told Germany something like that:
Ok guys we understand that you want change borders on east. Do what you want but don't think about changing western border.

Ahh and one more- maybe we could got back to Wermacht instead of course of polish legal system.

[Tribesman]

For political opponents, mainly Communists and Socialists. Who were Jews according to you?

Of course, don't you reallise that for rabid nationalist anti-semites its all the Jews , Jews created communism, they betrayed Poland , they created capitalism as well and run the media and business too which is why it is important to know which jews run which business, after all you can't just go into a shop unless you know who owns it or you might be putting money into the hands of traitors.
Now I know you might find it hard to believe , but even though the germans russians lithuanians czechs french ukranians byelorussians estonians americans and everyone else are not as good as the Poles , they are still not quite as bad as the jews.

[Meneldil]

Sorry maybe some sources?

No way out: the politics of Polish Jewry, 1935-1939, by Emanuel Melzer.

And before you even type it, here's your answer :

Jewish-Israeli anti-Poland propaganda

Now, while we're at it, the only reason Jews have traditionnally supported communism in Europe is only because they were treated as second-class citizens in their own countries (Poland, Germany, Italy, Hungary). Communism in theory could have offered them a true equality (though in reality, it's wasn't quite the case).

[Tristuskhan]

[I]Now, while we're at it, the only reason Jews have traditionnally supported communism in Europe is only because they were treated as second-class citizens in their own countries (Poland, Germany, Italy, Hungary).

Uh-oh, beware about Italy, Italian Jews were a good part of the communist party but did so mostly for pure social motivations. As Primo Levi stated, true racial discriminations came very late in Italy, in 1939 mostly, before there was a significant number of jewish members of the fascist party.

[Kralizec]

And quite frankly, what the German would have expected after THEY started a war of extermination where the open goal was to either kill or enslave the Slavic population. When the open aim of Hitler Germany was to starve Leningrad to death.
They knew what Hitler intended to do, because he broadcasted it.
So what the Russian soldier had to do? Ok, guy, you raped my sisters, daughters, mothers, you hanged my grad dad, my uncles because they were who they were, you torched my houses and wanted to enslave me but yeah, I understand, war is bad…

Er, I agree with what you're trying to say but this is a flawed argument. Soviet troops raped and pillaged every country they came across on the way to Germany- including Poland, wich as far as I know never supplied any troops to fight on the eastern front.

[Sarmatian]

Er, I agree with what you're trying to say but this is a flawed argument. Soviet troops raped and pillaged every country they came across on the way to Germany- including Poland, wich as far as I know never supplied any troops to fight on the eastern front.

There were more Poles fighting within the Red Army than with the western Allies...