Most legitimate diadochi?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

A better analogy then fighting the USA today would be Germany fighting Russia in WWI. Germany was a (relatively) newly unified country that fought the largest contiguous empire in the world. Before WWI, everyone thought that the might Russia Empire was unstoppable, but just like Persia in Alexander's time it was not the giant it was thought to be.

[Dutchhoplite]

whoa there :)
Yes, Alexander inherited from his father a perfected army and a revolutionary war doctrine ... however from day 1 of his reign he faced challenges both internal and external ...

1. He secured his position by relentlessly executing all his potential political rivals that could question / threaten his rule (princes, heirs , generals)- by our time's measures a harsh decision but a political necessity nevertheless-such was the man's sense of realism and his decisiveness...

2.He faced the revolt of Athens, Thebe (those cities rebelling not once but twice) Thrace,Thessaly and Illyria... to these simultaneous threats he responded with a fervent blitzkrieg that paralyzed his opponents ... crushing them he established his hegemony through examples of cruelty and magnanimity, intimidation and respect... (he razed Thebes but spared Athens )...

so you see nothing was "handed down" to Alexander ... he secured his throne by rights of war and ruthless action that demanded abilities, perception and drive beyond that of most people...

When Philip ascended the throne he faced the same problems or maybe worse and he created a powerfull army and state. Alexander's start was a lot easier.

Also I question that Philip II. was less brutal than Alexander.

Facts??

What cities did Philip burn down or exterminate?? Kill friends in drunken madness or hunt down non-existing conspiracies??

[Conradus]

He was murdered while governing Media, the point is that the evidence against him was non-existant and that against his son so flimsy as to be nearly irrelevant.

Philip Conquered Greece, Alexander Persia. Of the two Greece was the more complex, Persia merely the larger.

That's one large merely.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You must kill all your brothers since these are potential usurpers. I think you judge Alexander a bit too much by modern standards. Razing Thebes to the ground was also quite the measure of choice since it had rebelled, and there could never be any forgiveness against rebels, that was the moralty of the time. And what's bad about earning oneself enemies?

Also I question that Philip II. was less brutal than Alexander. Olympias did right in killing him, since he had a pregnant new wife Eurydike and questioned Alexander's position as heir to the throne, resulting in the father-in-law already doing the same. Alexander + Olympias = the winning team.

Philip didn't, neither did either of his brothers. Also, Alexander did not kill his brother, only those members of his family his father had already spared. Further, Philip only killed those who challenged him. Alexander mudered pretty much everyone who wasn't dissabled.

So, it's unlikely he would have had Alexander killed in favour of his baby son, though given Alexander's obvious emotional instability he was not the best choice as King.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Facts??
What cities did Philip burn down or exterminate?? Kill friends in drunken madness or hunt down non-existing conspiracies??

hmmmmmmm, ok let's see things from a different perspective :)

When Alexander died in 323 BC he was 32 years old... he was by then the undisputed ruler of Makedonia, Asia Minor, Syria,Egypt, Assyria and Babylonia, Persia,Baktria and extensive Indian territories beyond those of the mighty Achaemenid empire ... the kingdoms of Illyria,Thrace and the numerous old city states of Greece (save Lacedaemona) subordinated to Makedonia and recognizing Alexander as their "Hegemon"...

All these Alexander had achieved in the last 13 years of his life ... naturally conquests and political exploits of such dimension are linked with quite a lot of bloodshed... however if you study each and every one of those disputed atrocities in their true dimensions and the time's context you'll find that they were (almost) all politically necessary ...

1.They accuse Alexander of plotting the assassination of his father Philip ... the evidences of such a conspiracy are of course circumstancial and not definite (as usually happens in such cases) ... wether Olympias organised the killing (with or without Alexander's knowledge or approval ) or in fact the Persians acted so to eliminate the charismatic ruler of Makedonia (prior to launching a military campaign against Asia) remains a mystery ... the fact remains that Alexander greatly profitted from Philip's death ... his father questioning with his actions and words the very legitimacy of Alexander's royal dessent...
Elaborate on the below extract from Plutarch:

"At the wedding of Cleopatra, whom Philip fell in love with and married, she being much too young for him, her uncle Attalus in his drink desired the Macedonians would implore the gods to give them a lawful successor to the kingdom by his niece. This so irritated Alexander, that throwing one of the cups at his head, "You villain," said he, "what, am I then a bastard?" Then Philip, taking Attalus's part, rose up and would have run his son through; but by good fortune for them both, either his over-hasty rage, or the wine he had drunk, made his foot slip, so that he fell down on the floor. At which Alexander reproachfully insulted over him: "See there," said he, "the man who makes preparations to pass out of Europe into Asia, overturned in passing from one seat to another."

after this incident Alexander has fallen in favour and was in fact self exiled (probably fearing for his own safety) ... Philip exiling Alexander's companions and making it clear that he was not to become the Makedonian heir...

It comes to no surprise then that Alexander moved so swiftly in killing almost all other royal competitors to the throne ... such actions were absolutely instrumental in securing his rule (his rule's legitimacy been questioned by his very father ) and eliminating the very real prospects of a conspiracy or coup ... simply put -given the political context it would have been too dangerous to allow any competitors to live ...

Similarly Cassander had Alexander's child killed in order to secure his reign or Octavianus (Rome's first emperor) had Caesar's son killed , Ottoman Sultans killed their brothers and so on ... so you see political necessity and a common sense of self-preservance and realism imposed such actions-they were not the results of ruthless monstrosity ...

2. They accuse Alexander of razing cities and slaying populations... to my knowledge three are the cities that he has razed... Thebes , Gaza and Tyros ... however you must consider that exandrapodismos (=the slaying of all males and the enslavement of females and children ) followed by raping, pillaging and looting remained in fact the common conduct of war all throughout ancient times and medieval...

even politicians that were considered relatively moderate and considerate had their fair share in such actions... Philip had indeed razed Olynth (to answer your question) and before him Pericles exandrapodised Samos (or was it Chios???) - a very common practice of Atheneans to the allies that decided to abandon them... similarly the Spartans razed Plataea (just 50 years after their own forefathers fought and died alongside the Plataeans against Persians)...the Romans razed Carthage and the Crusaders massacred, raped and pillaged Constantinopol and Jerusalem etc etc etc ... in fact the cases of similar exandrapodisms in history are counted in tenths (if not hundreds)... so what was Alexander's "atrocity" then ??? simply implementing his time's right of war ???

3.They accuse Alexander of ordering old Parmenion's death and for the slaying of Cleitus... the truth is that Parmenion's death has become a necessity... Parmenion's son Philotas has been proven to participate in a conspiracy ... Makedonian martial law imposed the fate of alleged conspirators under the assembled army's verdict... so the hardened unforgiving army assembled and being courtmartalled-the conspirators were condemned and put to death... meanwhile before setting for his Bactrian campaign Alexander has left Parmenion with a guard at Ekbatana ... Ekbatana was crucial in controlling Alexander's logistics ... with the Makedonian army being caught into hostile territory and Parmenion controlling not only food but most importantly the flow of information between Alexander and his empire- having killed Philotas it was simply too dangerous to allow Parmenion to live ... so this too was an assassination imposed by military/political necessity ... and so was the killing/execution of head mutineers/conspirators and so on later in Alexander's life...

the death of Cleitus the Black was indeed a crime of passion and an atrocity... even more so taking into consideration that Cleitus was in fact Alexander's saviour in the battle of Issus... It must have been real demeaning for a megalomaniac like Alexander to know that his life was owed to someone else... so i guess in a subconscious level Alexander hated and loathed Cleitus and that being drunk and feeling insulted he killed him... let us remember once more Plutarch's extract were the drunken Philippus actually moved forth to slay his son ...
no more comments here...

[Mikhail Mengsk]

I think Seleukid kings were the true heirs of Alexandros, because their was the only kingdom that tried to unite the persian and greek culture. Also, they continuously tried to re-conquere the Alexandros' empire, while for example Ptolemies didn't. Ptolemies only tried to capture Syria, but no more.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Except that he had Attalus and Parmenion in Asia and Antipatar in Greece. Alexander's murder of his brother and cousin were unnessecary, Philip had spared the latter, and his innitial brutality earned him enemies in the Southern Cities until his death. Philip's Hegemony was established through cunning, and without destruction, by his death he had made Macedonia at least moderately acceptable.

Also, Alexander did not kill his brother, only those members of his family his father had already spared.

[kekailoa]

I think the true heirs to Alexander were the Celts. They have the pretty blond hair, the glory-seeking mentality, the complete nutty attitude, and just like Alexander, they liked smashing things and having people adore them. They also tended to kill people at the dinner table at times (like Alexander happened to do), loved to run people over with horses (another Alexanderian trait), and didn't like the Romans very much (something Alexander was starting to feel).

[Blxz]

What did Alexander do? Took Daddy's army, and Daddy's generals, and went crazy.

.

Didn't George Dubya Bush try and do something similar? He had the supposedly strongest army in the world and has led the country into a steady decline. When can we see america break up into the sucessor states I wonder?

Guess that makes the inbred deep south as the Ptolmies. Wonder who forms the other factions? Careful of the roman red tide...(china maybe?)

History repeats itself.

[DaciaJC]

Keep the politics out, eh?

[Ludens]

Keep the politics out, eh?

He said it .

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He killed the baby and his mother Cleopatra, not the epileptic.

[Kasperl]

His death was truly tragical - one not meant for a great general like him....

Is there ever a great general who enjoyed a death deserved his life?
From Cyrus to Alexander, from Marius to Caesar...
However, maybe Caesar's death can be considered worthwhile, as a price for his ambition and a sacrifice for the newborn empire.

[fleaza]

3.They accuse Alexander of ordering old Parmenion's death and for the slaying of Cleitus... the truth is that Parmenion's death has become a necessity... Parmenion's son Philotas has been proven to participate in a conspiracy ... Makedonian martial law imposed the fate of alleged conspirators under the assembled army's verdict... so the hardened unforgiving army assembled and being courtmartalled-the conspirators were condemned and put to death... meanwhile before setting for his Bactrian campaign Alexander has left Parmenion with a guard at Ekbatana ... Ekbatana was crucial in controlling Alexander's logistics ... with the Makedonian army being caught into hostile territory and Parmenion controlling not only food but most importantly the flow of information between Alexander and his empire- having killed Philotas it was simply too dangerous to allow Parmenion to live ... so this too was an assassination imposed by military/political necessity ... and so was the killing/execution of head mutineers/conspirators and so on later in Alexander's life.....

philotas was accused of pretty much nothing. alexander just wanted to kill parmenio for being related to attalus

[ARCHIPPOS]

philotas was accused of pretty much nothing. alexander just wanted to kill parmenio for being related to attalus

are you sure abt that ??? i specificaly remember reading that Philotas was involved at a conspiracy-along with others (who were also executed) at JFC Fuller's Generalship of Alexander the Great... i'll have to dig out the book and look up for the details ( i read it abt 5 years ago)...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

are you sure abt that ??? i specificaly remember reading that Philotas was involved at a conspiracy-along with others (who were also executed) at JFC Fuller's Generalship of Alexander the Great... i'll have to dig out the book and look up for the details ( i read it abt 5 years ago)...

Read Arian, the evidence involved pretty much two things.

1. Philotas not sharing his remaining horses out to the cavalry (Alexander had pushed the army too hard, and had insufficient remounts. In such a situation the commanders had to share out their horses).

2. Philotas did not inform the King of a conspiracy he had been told of by a page. His excuse was that he didn't believe the page and was trying to get the other pages in trouble.

No actual evidence was presented, no one identified him as a conspirator. All the extant sources report it as an example of either Alexander's paranoia or his manipulation by his generals.

Let me give you a piece of advice, Fuller is 50 years out of date, he produced a different kind of "narrative" history which is widely discredited today. Even N.G.L. Hammond's work has recieved a great deal of criticism since his death for an excess of positivism.

[ARCHIPPOS]

Read Arian, the evidence involved pretty much two things.

1. Philotas not sharing his remaining horses out to the cavalry (Alexander had pushed the army too hard, and had insufficient remounts. In such a situation the commanders had to share out their horses).

2. Philotas did not inform the King of a conspiracy he had been told of by a page. His excuse was that he didn't believe the page and was trying to get the other pages in trouble.

No actual evidence was presented, no one identified him as a conspirator. All the extant sources report it as an example of either Alexander's paranoia or his manipulation by his generals.

Let me give you a piece of advice, Fuller is 50 years out of date, he produced a different kind of "narrative" history which is widely discredited today. Even N.G.L. Hammond's work has recieved a great deal of criticism since his death for an excess of positivism.

thanx i'll try to locate Arian's extract and see what i find ...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The the whole thing, bear in mind it's written 500 years after the fact; and it's the best source we have.

[ARCHIPPOS]

on another note Fuler's book was not that bad...
sure he was a bit eccentric and definitely not a historian aaaand his approach was rather "armchair" ...
however the second part dealing with a detailed analysis of Alexander's major battles was top notch...
bear in mind that Fuller was in fact an influential army officer with a deep understanding of strategy and tactics so at least 50% of his book counts for sth...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

on another note Fuler's book was not that bad...
sure he was a bit eccentric and definitely not a historian aaaand his approach was rather "armchair" ...
however the second part dealing with a detailed analysis of Alexander's major battles was top notch...
bear in mind that Fuller was in fact an influential army officer with a deep understanding of strategy and tactics so at least 50% of his book counts for sth...

All that, and a Facist.

Remember, his analysis is based on positivist history.

[keiskander]

I would say noone since none of them where able to maintain Alexanders empire as one but several diffrent successors.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

All this Alexander hatred is a little bit biased in my opinion...

[king of thracia]

ARCHE SELEUKEIA

[Apázlinemjó]

To the topic... such a big empire, so fast, I think none could control it too long, even Alexander would have been smacked by the rebellions after the "full" conquest.

[ARCHIPPOS]

I think none could control it too long, even Alexander would have been smacked by the rebellions after the "full" conquest.

The conquest of all Asia and the forging of a united GrecoAsian empire was Alexander's lifegoal so he had some ideas on how to secure his conquests ... he intended to fuse Macedonian and Persian nobilities through marriage to create a new ruling class and adopt a "soft" type of rule... religious syncritism, political equality, respect of local customs and active utilization of exhisting power structures were means of this policy ...

The introduction of proskenysis was indicative of Alexander's intention to rule as a legitimate successor to the Aechemenids adopting the Aechemenid political practices and state ideology... the fact that he imposed that Greeks too should also be subject to this kneeling before him is in accordance to his program of political equality of all before the High-King...

The creation of a multitude of autonomous city-states (in the model of Greece) and especially among the empire's edges did not only serve the purpose of military-political control and colonization but far more importantly served in projecting Greek culture and the bourgeois paradigm into tribal societies ... cultural influence (as everyone knows) is in fact the most permanent kind of rule and the one with the most far-reaching, dramatic political consequences...

Should Alexander have lived another 30 years he would have fully forged his vision of unity... instead we are now forced to comment on his "unfinished" dream -trully an oeuvre in progress which was unexpectedly interrupted ...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The conquest of all Asia and the forging of a united GrecoAsian empire was Alexander's lifegoal so he had some ideas on how to secure his conquests ... he intended to fuse Macedonian and Persian nobilities through marriage to create a new ruling class and adopt a "soft" type of rule... religious syncritism, political equality, respect of local customs and active utilization of exhisting power structures were means of this policy ...

The introduction of proskenysis was indicative of Alexander's intention to rule as a legitimate successor to the Aechemenids adopting the Aechemenid political practices and state ideology... the fact that he imposed that Greeks too should also be subject to this kneeling before him is in accordance to his program of political equality of all before the High-King...

The creation of a multitude of autonomous city-states (in the model of Greece) and especially among the empire's edges did not only serve the purpose of military-political control and colonization but far more importantly served in projecting Greek culture and the bourgeois paradigm into tribal societies ... cultural influence (as everyone knows) is in fact the most permanent kind of rule and the one with the most far-reaching, dramatic political consequences...

Should Alexander have lived another 30 years he would have fully forged his vision of unity... instead we are now forced to comment on his "unfinished" dream -trully an oeuvre in progress which was unexpectedly interrupted ...

Dissagree, Alexander showed no interest in running his Empire, only conquering it. He brutallity and injustice came to the fore when he returned from India, and the Empire was already moving into revolt.

To say nothing of his destruction of his own army by the desert.

Consider this, Philip built the Army, and it stayed loyal to Alexander as long as he stayed loyal to his father's generals. As the conquests progressed the army begins to unravel, until it revolts, twice. Alexander blames the front-rankers and has some of them executed.

As I said, I child with Daddy's toys.

[Epimetheus]

It's easy to see only the best or worst in leaders who are alive today, much less those who died over a thousand years ago. Espescially when they were literally hailed by their contemporaries as being either divine, demonic, or drunk.