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  1. #1
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Germany arguely is the most dominant power in Europe and in many ways "With what way Germany goes, the rest follow" with only check and balance being France and the United Kingdom, with similar but smaller power.

    If Germany, France (which often work together a lot) with UK being the 3rd wheel in many things, but if all 3 had common goals, the whole EU basically follows them.

    In UK politics style view, France+Germany are Labour, UK are the Conservatives and Possibly Italy as the Lib Dems. As in, France+Germany combination having the biggest say, with UK playing the opposition, and Italy just making lots of noise, but nobody notices them except their leader likes electing supermodels to the cabinet.
    there is a magic phrase hidden in there somewhere..................

    EMFM has said it already, we can have power and influence already, without trying to dilute what we have in order to get 'more'.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    on a separate note, the Grauniad accuses the ECR of having hitlerite sympathies, and the latvian government gets so hacked off with the smears from Milliband it complains to our government:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...omes-demented/

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    better still, Stephen Fry is getting in on the act too:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ge...chwitz-was-on/

    Fry further exposed his Tupperware view of politics by dismissing the Conservatives’ regrouping in the European Parliament as relating to manoeuvres that nobody is interested in. Sorry, but in the real world as distinct from the luvvies’ bubble that Fry inhabits, many of us are enormously interested in what can be done to frustrate the encroaching power of the EU upon our national sovereignty and liberties.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-08-2009 at 08:36.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  2. #2
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Uh, the EU already has representation in the G20...

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Uh, the EU already has representation in the G20...
    Yes, that's true. The thing is that Germany has seperate representation, so I'd rather maintain that than give it up.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    we can have power and influence already
    where have you been for the last century?
    Britain is now just a bit player.
    In fact worse than a bit player as it has to be left out of certain scenes as it presence would be an embarrassment to the whole show.

  5. #5
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    interesting article by the economist:
    http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...=hptextfeature

    Wake up Europe!

    Oct 8th 2009
    From The Economist print edition
    It is time for the world’s biggest economy to rise from its slumber and play a global role

    Reuters

    A REFERENDUM in a small island off the European mainland about an incomprehensible document sounds dull. Yet Ireland’s vote on October 2nd in favour of the Lisbon treaty marks a milestone for the European Union. The treaty—which, despite a flurry about the Czechs, now looks certain to be ratified—is likely to be the last big piece of EU institution-building for years to come. It also poses serious questions about the world’s biggest economy. Is Europe evolving inexorably into a federation of states? Could it become an economic trendsetter? Will Europe wake up and take a bigger role in the world? Or are the affairs of man to be decided largely in Washington and Beijing, with the new “G2” occasionally copying in the Brussels bureaucracy on its decisions?

    Very few of the answers to these questions can be found in the moderately useless Lisbon treaty. It is a deliberately obscure reworking of the draft EU constitutional treaty rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005. This newspaper opposed the constitution because it failed utterly to achieve the goals set by the Laeken European summit in 2001: simplification of the rules, a clearer distribution of power between the centre and national governments, greater transparency, bringing the EU closer to voters. That the Lisbon treaty is being driven through despite having been rejected by three out of a total of six referendums, and with ten governments reneging on promises to hold votes of their own, is deeply shabby.
    The lessons of Lisbon

    Some Eurosceptics want to fight on, hoping that a Tory victory in Britain could mean a new referendum. Assuming that the Czechs have by then ratified the treaty, that would be dangerous and pointless. Dangerous, because if everybody (including the British) has already signed the treaty, it could soon turn into a debate about Britain leaving the union—a considerably worse result for everybody than living with a slightly duff treaty. Pointless, because there is now a good debate to be had about Europe that liberal voices can and should win.

    Many Eurosceptics are so blinded by hatred of Brussels that they have failed to grasp what a huge defeat the Lisbon treaty has been for their opponents. Every other EU treaty for the past 25 years has contained the seeds of the next one, making the process seem inexorable. But there are no such germs in the Lisbon deal and the participants are exhausted by the eight-year effort to push it through. It is not just the British who oppose more institutional deepening. The Irish will not want to repeat their practice of voting No and then Yes to another treaty. Even Germany’s constitutional court has raised a red flag to further EU integration. The union will thus continue as a mainly inter-governmental organisation with supranational attributes, rather than turning into a full federation.

    Nor is the content of Lisbon all bad (see article, article). Alongside the unnecessary and intrusive charter of fundamental rights and the mad idea of giving the undeserving European Parliament more powers, Lisbon improves the EU’s voting system, partly sorts out a muddled foreign-policy structure and creates a permanent presidency of the European Council in place of the present six-month, rotating one. The challenge now ought to be to make it all work. And that points to two internal tasks and two external ones.

    The internal tasks address Europe’s poor economic performance. The world’s largest economic block will lose ground even faster to China and America if it fails to raise its low productivity growth through liberalising reforms and by reducing the size of the state. Along with this comes a second task: to preserve the single market, by far the EU’s greatest achievement of recent years. The single market and the EU’s competition and state-aid rules are under attack as national governments look for ways to protect jobs. A priority of the European Commission must be to uphold the rules by taking a tough line in such cases as the proposed German bail-out for Opel.
    Lift up your heads

    The European project has spent too many of its first 50 years looking inwards: building the single market, sorting out institutions, arguing about money, endlessly negotiating treaties. In the next 50 years it should look outwards more. At present Europe is a weak actor on a stage dominated by America and China; India and Brazil are in the wings. Can this change?

    It may. The chief obstacle to a common EU foreign policy has never been institutional. It is, rather, that 27 countries have different interests. It is desirable that foreign policy, like taxation, should remain subject to unanimity, for these matters lie at the heart of national sovereignty. But the Lisbon treaty creates two new posts—a new high representative for foreign policy, smashing together two current jobs, and the new council president—that could give the union a more public face, as well as a beefed-up foreign service. This offers a hope of the EU exerting an influence more in keeping with its economic weight, as it has so far done only in trade negotiations.

    For this to happen, Europe’s leaders must get two more tasks right. The first is to stick with what has proved to be the EU’s most successful foreign policy by far: its own enlargement. The offer of membership has been the most effective tool for bringing prosperity and peace, first to the Mediterranean countries and then to ex-communist central and eastern Europe. Nowhere matters more to the stability of today’s EU than the region to its east and south-east. If the EU is to flourish, it must keep its doors open.

    The second task is to choose substantial people for the two new positions. The foreign job may yet prove more powerful, but the president of the council will set the tone. One could imagine, say, Angela Merkel sitting down as an equal with Presidents Obama and Hu; but she has another job. So the choice is the usual Europygmies or Tony Blair (see article). Britain’s former prime minister has his faults; but he is a figure with clout and a name that is not merely known in Belgium. What is more, he would press for the reforms Europe needs. If Europe does not choose someone of his stature, it will be the first sign it has drifted back to sleep.
    i'm not convinced the anti-federal argument has been won, and lol'ed at authors gushing over the EU's two major successes, enlargement and the common market, neither of which is caused by or dependent on a federal state.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    and an interesting look at how spineless the conservatives intend to be when they get into power:
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...ves_not_as.cfm
    Britain's Conservatives: not as Eurosceptic as you think

    Posted by:
    Charlemagne

    Categories:
    Britain

    JUST how Eurosceptic is the leadership of today’s British Conservative party? My hunch, after a visit to their annual conference in Manchester which allowed me to speak to some senior figures, is that the party leadership is not as Eurosceptic as many people in Brussels or even Britain think.

    Indeed, I would argue that if you read the fine print of his keynote speech on foreign policy to the conference, the shadow foreign secretary William Hague takes a much more nuanced line than press reporting of the speech would suggest.

    I think the plan for an incoming Conservative government is to pick a couple of fights to satisfy the demands of their electorate for a renegotiation of Britain’s relationship with Europe, but reassure other European governments by being surprisingly constructive on a range of issues, especially (and perhaps surprisingly) in the field of European foreign and security policy. In short, they think they are going to be firm but rather pragmatic. But and it is a big but, I think they are out of touch with the political realities of the EU of today. So what they think is pragmatic will still be seen as a red rag to a bull by their fellow EU leaders.

    Much press reporting on the Hague speech trundled down the familiar train track of Tory-bitter-row-Europe. The Times, for instance, said:

    William Hague risked re-opening the bitter dispute over Europe today by attacking the EU and demanding a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. After a week in which the Tory high command has tried to keep Europe out of the headlines, the Shadow Foreign Secretary said that there should be no president of the EU and that Britain must have its own distinctive foreign policy.

    Hang on, read what he said. Calling for a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty is standing party policy, repeated endlessly in interviews by Mr Hague and David Cameron. And he does not say there should be no president of the EU. Mr Hague said:

    “We seek a European Union that acts by agreement among nations rather than by placing its own president or foreign minister above any nation.”

    The first part of his sentence is a bit disingenuous. The EU is not a purely intergovernmental body, and could not be, without losing things that the Conservatives strongly support, notably the single market: as Mr Hague knows full well. The Tories have always had a dilemma with the single market, which I have written about many times: they support the (rather amazingly liberal) principle that national governments are not allowed to give state aid to their national champions that distorts free competition within the union. Thus, under EU law it may well be illegal for the German government to give German taxpayers’ money to Opel to keep relatively high-cost factories open in Germany at the expense of Spanish, British or Belgian Opel factories that are more productive and competitive. That is amazingly liberal: just try telling the Americans, Japanese or South Koreans they could not spend their own money shielding their own car plants. But the mechanism that can deliver that liberalism has to be supranational: as I read somewhere today (I am sorry, I have forgotten where) try imagining what would be the fate of EU competition authority if it were controlled by national authorities, rather than the referee in Brussels.

    But the second half of the sentence is not extreme at all, and does not amount to opposing a standing president of the European Council (the bit of the machine where national leaders meet), a post created by the Lisbon Treaty. The president envisaged by Lisbon will be elected by serving heads of state and government for two and a half years, and if he or she wants a second term will have to secure re-election from them. He will have no other direct mandate, unlike the serving heads of government whose summits he will chair. Anyone who thinks that such a president would be “above any nation” or indeed even above such bossy nations as France, Germany or Britain, is living in a political fantasy world.

    Then read this from Mr Hague: it could come from the current British government.

    “…when it comes to dealing with Iran over nuclear policy, Russia over energy security, or the Balkans to prevent new conflict or disorder, we need Europe to use its collective weight in the world and indeed to do so more often.”

    And the pragmatic bit going wrong? I think the Tories are preparing to say they want to work with the EU on things like climate change, lobbying for global free trade and stability in the Balkans, which could, say, see much more British help being sent to the EU missions in Bosnia. I think in return they are going to ask for things including the renationalisation of EU employment policy, on the grounds that the Working Time Directive is an outrage. But I think they misjudge how that will work. Even if some other EU leaders might not care that much about granting Britain yet another opt-out, especially as EU social policy is a bit of a dead end at the moment, it will be seen as hugely provocative by the Euro-left and the trade unions. Expect immediate shouting about “social dumping” by Britain, which even sympathetic national leaders will struggle to ignore.
    i agree that europe is not a fight the cons are really interested in, and they will certainly try to fob off the electorate with stern words about repatriation of powers and other such blather.

    i am curious if the authors contention that conservative pragmatism will still blow up in their faces due to the continental left getting their knickers in a twist over british social and employment policy.
    is there enough of the Left remaining in europe for this to be a serious problem, last time i checked greece and portugal don't count for much on the international scene?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  7. #7
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    The main BBC News site has some encouraging news today.

  8. #8
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    there is a magic phrase hidden in there somewhere.................
    Also, that is why it is a good thing. If it was totally all about Britain, it be a reminder of the British Empire were we "forcibly submit" others to our will and force them to serve us. United EU would be treated everyone as equal partners with the same interests opposed to selfishness of the minority.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by furunulus
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar
    If Germany, France (which often work together a lot) with UK being the 3rd wheel in many things, but if all 3 had common goals, the whole EU basically follows them.
    there is a magic phrase hidden in there somewhere.................
    Also, that is why it is a good thing. If it was totally all about Britain, it be a reminder of the British Empire were we "forcibly submit" others to our will and force them to serve us.

    United EU would be treated everyone as equal partners with the same interests opposed to selfishness of the minority.
    lol, how do you manage to invoke the 'evils' of empire when discussing great-power politics between britain france and germany?

    and it's not selfish, its called national interest, and is quite a common sight among different nations because they have differing aims and differing values to which they attach to those aims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    The main BBC News site has some encouraging news today.
    linky?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-09-2009 at 08:31.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    and it's not selfish, its called national interest, and is quite a common sight among different nations because they have differing aims and differing values to which they attach to those aims.
    Hence, it is selfish.

    Unity would remove such selfishness so real progress is made for many more people. Instead of people in competition just trying to get a leg over eachother, there would be more co-operation.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    are you proposing just clicking your fingers, and lo; the peoples of europe shall become one, with the same dreams and aspirations as their comrades from across the water?

    because if you are not, then that unity of policy and action is better known as tyranny.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-09-2009 at 17:07.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  12. #12
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    1) No, since that is impossible.

    2) No, it isn't.
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  13. #13
    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Yeah, because it's tyranny that people in Scotland or Wales work for the common good of Britain

    Here's an interesting article:
    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14586858
    So, will we see a "President Blair", and if we did, would it be a good thing?

  14. #14
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    linky?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8299485.stm


    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Hence, it is selfish.

    Unity would remove such selfishness so real progress is made for many more people. Instead of people in competition just trying to get a leg over eachother, there would be more co-operation.
    In your socialist utopia, are the skies purple?

  15. #15
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Yeah, because it's tyranny that people in Scotland or Wales work for the common good of Britain

    Here's an interesting article:
    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14586858
    So, will we see a "President Blair", and if we did, would it be a good thing?
    300 years since the act of union tells me that we have a pretty harmonised opinion by now.

    he would be a good president, which is precisely why i don't want him, i want a pygmy to occupy the position if such a position must exist.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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