Europe

[Subotan]

Yeah, because it's tyranny that people in Scotland or Wales work for the common good of Britain

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14586858
So, will we see a "President Blair", and if we did, would it be a good thing?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

linky?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8299485.stm

Hence, it is selfish.

Unity would remove such selfishness so real progress is made for many more people. Instead of people in competition just trying to get a leg over eachother, there would be more co-operation.

In your socialist utopia, are the skies purple?

[Beskar]

In your socialist utopia, are the skies purple?

In yours, is there a constant nuclear winter?

Yeah, because it's tyranny that people in Scotland or Wales work for the common good of Britain

Scotland, Wales, England all working together producing the very powerful and popular Britain.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In yours, is there a constant nuclear winter?

I tend to inhabit some form of reality, and we haven't had one of those here yet, so I think I'm alright.

[Beskar]

I tend to inhabit some form of reality, and we haven't had one of those here yet, so I think I'm alright.

But you have constant purple skies there right unlike the rest of us?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

But you have constant purple skies there right unlike the rest of us?

The place I currently reside in, and where your body also does while your mind wanders in the realms of the glorious utopian state of your socialist comrades, has the normal blue skies. It is generally known as reality. If you like, you can use Google to find a picture.

[Beskar]

The place I currently reside in, and where your body also does while your mind wanders in the realms of the glorious utopian state of your socialist comrades, has the normal blue skies. It is generally known as reality. If you like, you can use Google to find a picture.

I found this one, explains everything:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyway, enough of being petty, EMFM.

[Furunculus]

Yeah, because it's tyranny that people in Scotland or Wales work for the common good of Britain

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=14586858
So, will we see a "President Blair", and if we did, would it be a good thing?

300 years since the act of union tells me that we have a pretty harmonised opinion by now.

he would be a good president, which is precisely why i don't want him, i want a pygmy to occupy the position if such a position must exist.

[Subotan]

300 years since the act of union tells me that we have a pretty harmonised opinion by now.

Despite the fact that it was created with force (See Civil Wars, Conquest of Wales, The Troubles, Jacobite Rebellions etc.)? Yet you oppose the peaceful formation of a loose association of states, that haven't been at war once since the beginning of that Union over 50 years ago?

[Furunculus]

why should i care how it formed, what matters is that it works now.

and i oppose britain's involvement in what appears to be a federal state because i consider it to have no net benefit.

if britain were so tiddly little continental state with no influence and a history of hosting other peoples wars then i might take a different assessment of the net benefit of being part of a federal state.

if i were absolutely convinced that the end state of the EU would result in a loose association of sovereign nation states then i would stop bitching, but history tells us all otherwise.

[Beskar]

Subotan, you are forgetting something, these people are basically nationalists. The fact we are a nation already means we are one now, and they don't care about some Europe as they only care about Britain (Furunculus) or they have some fantasy land ideal of the American dream (EMFM).

Furunculus's arguments are mainly based on the here and now of Britain, such as overall net benefits of Britain as a nation with pro's and con's. He generally sees Britain as a great nation, with a nato security seat, one of the top economies, etc and has a great pride in his nation. He sees Europe as this "foriegn tentacle monster" wanting to control his beloved nation, weakening it and have random people deciding policies and governance. His arguments for the situation are quite reasonable, as you cannot deny that Britain currently is in a very comfortable position in many aspects.


However, would you fully support a confederation, Furunculus? As in many ways, the EU is part of a confederation, not a federation. (In technical terms, it is some weird hybrid)

Taken from Wikipedia:

A confederation in modern political terms is a permanent union of sovereign states for common action in relation to other states.[1] Usually created by treaty but often later adopting a common constitution, confederations tend to be established for dealing with critical issues such as defense, foreign affairs, or a common currency, with the central government being required to provide support for all members.

The nature of the relationship among the states constituting a confederation varies considerably. Likewise, the relationship between the member states and the central government, and the distribution of powers among them, is highly variable. Some looser confederations are similar to intergovernmental organizations, while tighter confederations may resemble federations.

Off-topic:

why should i care how it formed, what matters is that it works now.

Dislike change?

[Furunculus]

i have the same problem with the looser definition of confederation as i do with the EU political project, i.e. there is no definition of what they wish to achieve and thus no limits to the application of ever deeper union.

if the agreed goal was to achieve the former and not the latter of the following:
"Some looser confederations are similar to intergovernmental organizations, while tighter confederations may resemble federations," then i would be perfectly happy.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Subotan, you are forgetting something, these people are basically nationalists.

And you're an internationalist. Big deal. We see the nation as, in this case, the ideal size of a country. It's not about America at all, it's about Germany and how I want my country to go forward in the world.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Here's a nice dilemma for you, Maniac: do you prefer social rights for dispossed Germans, or do you prefer an end to Lisbon?

Basically, that is Klaus' offer. He will only agree to Lisbon, if the EU is willing to give up social rights for the three million expelled Germans from the Czech Republic.

(Reuters) - Czech President Vaclav Klaus said on Friday he wanted Prague to negotiate an "exemption" from the European Union's Lisbon Treaty to avert possible property claims by Germans expelled after World War Two

As to my own answer: No! The EU is here to put a final end to nationalist animosity. The Germans have social rights, like all other peoples. Incorporating Germany into a democratic Europe, and currently incorporating East Europe into a democratic Europe is the very business of the EU.
No to the Polish, Czech, Lithuanian (and their newfound friends, the UK Conservatives) demands to do WWII all over again.


Then again: well, we've given in to Poland and the UK too - Polish and British subjects will remain unprotected by European human rights provisions. We've given in to the Irish too - no abortion for raped teenage girls, American corporations retain their favourable tax rates, and Ireland does not have to pick up its share of the tab for defense.
So we might as well give in to the Czech anti-EU demands too - no social rights for the three million expelled Germans.

Though frankly, I would've prefered the anti-EU / anti-Lisbon crowd to have more 'enlightened' demands than all of these. (Like more human rights and democracy, instead of less)

[Subotan]

We see the nation as, in this case, the ideal size of a country.

Despite the fact that nations range from 1,000 to over 1,000,000,000 people in size?

it's about Germany and how I want my country to go forward in the world.

I wanna see Germany go forward in the world too. I just don't see why Germany, France, Poland, UK etc. going forward in the world should mean that everyone else should go back.