Conseil du Royaume

[_Tristan_]

Philippe acknowledges the arrival of Barbus Selvo with a nod and a smile.

Welcome to our Conseil, Barbus... I hope that you'll make you feel at home... Though knowing your bride, a change from home must be what you're looking for...

Philippe's face then becomes more more grave.

Mes Seigneurs,

I think it is time to take stock of our conquests. We've achieved much during my reign and under the guidance of our Senechaux.

We have reconquered the land lost to the children of Charlemagne and to our former vassal Guillaume, surpassing even the accomplishments of our greatest ancestor.

France is truly blessed by God, as is proven in our successes against the English.

And yet, I've heard many among you wish that we surrender these conquests. On what grounds, mes Seigneurs ?

To act contrite of having brought down the heretic Guillaume ? To prove to our neighbours and to the world that we feel guilty for our actions ?

I cannot understand you stance. Only a few years ago, Guillaume, my former vassal, laid a claim to my crown, trying to enforce it by force of arms. Don't we have a right as victors to the spoils ? Is that not the way to treat the lands and the people that raised their arms against us ?

Moreover, I do not wish to set a precedent. For if we were to relinquish our English holdings to their former masters or to the Scots, what should we be prepared to cede ? Valencia to Spain ? Nuremburg, Bern or Staufen to the Reich ? Marseille to the Milanese ? Hamburg to Danemark ? Magdeburg to Poland ?

For I tell you, if we begin given away our conquests, we'll soon find beggars at our doors.

In this light, I wish to propose the following legislation :

Proclamation 3.1 :The borders of France will be fixed upon their boundaries of 1100. No territories comprised between these borders can be given, sold or otherwise exchanged to another Kingdom (OOC : faction) but through a 2/3 vote of the Conseil authorizing it. If lost through an act of war, all efforts will be implemented so that any of those territories are reconquered by the end of the term in which it was lost or at the latest the first half of the next term, if the territory was lost in the second half of the term. All Edicts contradictory to this Proclamation will be considered null and void.

This should keep the "beggars" at bay and help us have the manpower to defend our conquest and launch the Crusade that so many of you wish for.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I second Proclamation 3.1

[Vladimir]

Forgive me, my prince, but one cannot second a proclamation by the king. If he proclaims it, it is law. The only issue is determining if he has the authority to do so.

[AussieGiant]

"It is not a precedent your Majesty. We can do what we like wiz ze land we 'ave taken.

Ze simple fact is, we went in wiz a stated aim which we achieved. Zat aim was not to take land but deal wiz William. Well, 'e's been dealt wiz, and now we conveniently take ze land?

Giving it back to ze English or Scottish would show us to be 'onourable in our aims and not tempted by ze need for more land and power.

In ze mean time, we 'ave taken ze lands off ze English in France proper. Somezing zat can be understood and seen by Christendom as reasonable and our right.

Ze rest seems to occur very transparently as a grab for power while ze English were momentarily out of favour wiz ze Pope. Somezing zat 'as been resolved wiz Williams deaz.

As for beggars, well, 'NO' can be an answer to zeir pleas."

[Marcus Agrippa]

Alexandre stands to be heard by the king, A concerned look upon his face.

Mon Roi,
I have to ask what your intention is for the future of France. Your named the chivalrous and you deserve that title. However since war with the Holy Roman empire began, you have avocated that we conquor with few limits. Now you tell us we should keep lands that are far flung and difficult to protect.
What happens when other kingdoms decide that our garrisons are so small that they can take what they want with little effort.
We have few trade routes few allies and an army we have to pay more for, than if we trained our own.
If they wish to blocade our ports we have few ships to defend us.
We have war on three fronts that seem to have no end.
If you have a master plan please elaborate because this counsel seems split between sense and loyalty.

Having said his peace Alexandre bows and sits eagerly awaiting the kings response.

[Ituralde]

Simon nods at the words of Alain de Rohan.

[OverKnight]

Hugues nods as well.

[_Tristan_]

Philippe listens attentively to the objections.

I hear you well, mes Seigneurs... But tell me how honourable would it be for us to relinquish the hold we have over those English provinces to the Scots who are themselves at war with England ? Would it be honourable to turn those people over to some of their fiercest enemy ? Is that how you see honour and chivalry ? I do not... What I know is that under our rule, the people of England will prosper as much as our own, that they'll be treated fairly... Do we have such guarantees if we turn them over to the Scots ? Do we even have these guarantees if we release them to the descendants of Guillaume ? Will he not exert upon them his vengeance for having submitted to our rule, for not having fought back ?

Maybe some of our neighbours will see our work in England as self-centered but in our hearts, and more importantly in God's eye, we will be doing what is honourable and right so I say let them see us the way they want to see us... The more important is knowing that we'll be recognized for our deeds on Judgment Day.

And Sieur LeSueur, may I remind you that the war against the Reich was started by an aggression upon my very person and that following God's Will as expressed by His Holiness, I ordered a cessation of hostilities which were started again upon the Kaiser's excommunication. Hence the war in the East is based upon the same grounds as the war in Albion.

Around us, Kingdoms and Duchies fall prey to heresy... Heretics march upon our lands... But through all this, France remains as a bastion of faith, a beacon to those who would seek shelter...

Who are we to refuse it to those who require it ? Is that the conduct of a true Christian ?

Or are you, mes Seigneurs, acting out of spite, because the Crusade that so many of you required against Guillaume has been nipped in the bud ? And your dreams of glory with it ? Why is it only Albion that occupy your mind and about which you wish us to turn tail and run ? Out of some strategic insight ? Then tell me what position is the more threatened : Nuremberg which can be assailed by Imperial armies from almost all corners of the Earth ? Or our English provinces which are assailable from the North and West only and can provide for themselves in matters of recruitment ? How come none of you demands the return of those provinces to the Reich or Denmark or Poland ? Wouldn't that prove, as you claim, to our neighbours, that we have accomplished until now is not a land-grab ? Let me hear you on these mattters, my Lord.

Nevertheless, mes Seigneurs, I hear your words and I understand your fears that our Royaume may flounder against too many enemies. Do not forget that we are favoured by God, as has been proven countless times, defeating insurmountable odds here and there... To adress your concerns, I'd be willing to amend my Proclamation to reflect the changes you deem necessary to make our Royaume more defendable. But I wish you take time to consider my words and the necessity for us to provide to the needy, for the salvation of their souls...

[Braden]

Father,

I hear your words and they sound reasoned and sensible. However, many of us here hear such words and just think of “Imperial” aggression, of a need to conquer and control rationalised by words which sound appeasing to the ear yet we still fear them for there is a real possibility that such noble words can be used to gain something abhorrent to someone as worthy as yourself.

Beware Father, when you rethink what you propose here, of what will become of those people and those lands should your noble thoughts be perverted.

Far harder is it to stay your hand now but far easier than attempting to make amendment should this all turn to folly. The only enemy I fear is God and his wrath my father, this is why I wished England to be in English hands be they their own local Duc’s or their own new King.

For sure we can say we will rule the English well and justly, but perhaps were they not the words that Bastard William used when he sailed for that land? Have the English exchanged one yoke born of France for yet another? What of a call for their country in their own hands?

There is no right by birth or Gods will that says we have claim to their lands.

I await a reworded Proclamation 3.1 before commenting further.

[AussieGiant]

"Many questions your majesty, but not many answers.

We called a crusade 'ere in zis Council because ze premise was to take down William. It wasn't called.

Not only were we uninterested in English land on ze island, we chose to use ze Pope's displeasure and excommunication as ze reason to even go to Albion.

Zere is no reason to stay given we committed to ze reason for going so clearly. Unless of course we are shanging our minds?"

[Marcus Agrippa]

My king,

If you intend to extend our protection to lands far and wide then tell us and make provitions to govern and protect what we have and what we gain.
I have watched as nobles have been attacked and seeing a weakness in the enemy conquered their lands.
I believe making allies and trade partners provides wealth to improve France and prevents us over extending our forces. What if armies from farther east take advantage of the Reichs weakness they could swamp us or attack lands under protected by us.
The Reich provides a buffer till we increase our forces if they can defend themselves.
Albion and Spanish provinces have few defenders. England has a force in the north and lands north and west. Plus you may have noticed Albion is surrounded by English lands and nations across the sea who may see their opertunaty for easy expansion.

Like I said I don't doubt your character my king but if you see heretics and wish to free them by taking their lands we must do it with more thought. Less we bite off more than we can chew.

[Ituralde]

My intention in going to Albion was to punish their heretic leader. I was attacked that this was nothing but an ill disguised landgrab and that the Order wishes only for power. To show the sincerety of my claims I promised that the mission against William was not for land. I stand by what I have said and will support any Edict that relieves us of those English posessions.

[Ramses II CP]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Charles looks towards Louis..

I may be young but at least I know how to make sons!

Turning towards Barbus Selvio..

So, what took you so long to get here? Made some money or 'bought' another princess on your way here?
I really don't understand why Constance chose you! Venetian from all people!!

Charles shakes his head..

Louis winks in Charles' direction,

As do I dear boy, as do I! It is only my wife who lacks this ability, and my daughters are suitable to serve France. I daresay little Heloise may be a match for your courage already.

For my part I welcome good Sir Selvo, and salute his courage. He has tackled an adversary more terrible than the English by far!

As for Proclamation 3.1, it is writ by the hand of the King whose authority descends directly from God. As such it has my unwavering support, but I wish also to acknowledge the very great nobility of Mon Roi in agreeing to listen to the Council's suggestions. It is a testament to the might of the Franks that we can come together to make such matters acceptable to all.

Louis bows to his father and resumes his seat in silence, with a troubled look on his face.

[Vladimir]

*Gontran looks down at his papers*

*looking up*

The word of mon Roi descends from God but gold comes from the treasury. While London is a potentially profitable city, it and the rest of the isle will take considerable investment. Look at the poor condition of our trading cities. For centuries we suffered from Dark Ages brought about by the rise of the heretic, many of whom reside in Iberia. Our lands are fertile and our people are proud, but our cities are laughable. Let us restore our lands to our former glory and beyond before we invest so much in foreign lands. The occupation of England will restrict desperately needed funds and cause additional burdens for our Seneschal. We've recently seen how oppressive those duties are.

[deguerra]

It will come as no surprise that I agree entirely with the objections to the Proclamation that have been put before this Conseil in better words than I could find.

There are two answers to these objections put forward:

1. That it is a proclamation from our sovereign and beyond doubt. If that is the case, so be it and may God have mercy on our souls.

2. That it is equally or more honourable to keep Albion than hand it to the Scots. This fails on two counts.

Firstly, a French master is equally, if not more alien to the English than a Scottish one, and Scotland and England are no more blood enemies than are England and France.

Secondly, it ignores the alternative proposals which have been made, namely to return the lands to the English or to give them independence of all three.

[OverKnight]

Reeves speaks.

My Lords, I have been informed that the time for the proposing and seconding of Legislation has passed. Voting will begin shortly.

OOC: Zim has asked me to handle the voting thread for this session.

[Vladimir]

Chevaliers, forgive me. I was buried in legislative matters and did not read Edict 3.7 carefully enough. Therefore, I withdraw my support.

[deguerra]

Come and see the violence inherent in the system...Seigneurs I believe we have just been turned from a body with some, albeit limited legislative power to the insignificant audience in a Capetin puppet play.

Not only that, but we have not even been offered the dignity of an explanation, let alone a justification. It is a good thing too, that our brave Kings are appointed by God himself, lest we start to question their sanity and fitness to hold power.

Of course, perhaps such divine providence is less strong than we might think. After all, did not Guillaume of England and a succession of German Kaisers make similar claims, only to find themselves swiftly excommunicated and at the wrong side of a coffin.

But of course, such things could not happen to Philipe the Honourable, mighty ruler of the mighty Franks. His providence, worldly or divine is beyond question. So if I may, I will take my seat and enjoy the show.

[Ramses II CP]

Louis absorbs the implications of the veto silently before announcing,

Mon Roi it was not necessary to veto a measure I proposed, had you but asked I would have withdrawn it. To those who would complain I point out that this power was granted the King as a part of the foundation of this body; his mandate to veto underlies and empowers our own mandate to propose law. The two cannot be split without irreparable harm to both.

[OverKnight]

Hugues speaks.

This is not an auspicious beginning. The King is within his rights to veto legislation. However, as with his announcement of his taking the office of Seneschal, I wish it had been done in a more timely fashion.

I also would have liked an explanation rather than a terse statement by a minor functionary (OOC: Hi Zim! )

With such a interesting beginning to his Majesty's term, I'm sure the Conseil will have to be vigilant for the rest of it.

[TinCow]

Christophe frowns.

Perhaps I should see to it that my own veto is properly oiled and sharpened.

[Vladimir]

Christophe frowns.

Perhaps I should see to it that my own veto is properly oiled and sharpened.

Oh, my friend. Perhaps you should be less gloomy and focus more on "weapon maintenance." Marseilles will soon have the facilities to do so.

[AussieGiant]

Alain leans forward.

So in essence ze King has now added London, Valencia and Pamploma to his 'oldings, mercenaries are not able to garrison and if a Crusade is called, all land is to be 'anded to ze Spanish.

Ze only zing zath seems unpalatable to ze King is ze last piece of legislation.

I am sure ze flexibility our new Seneschal 'as will be most revealing in ze coming term.

We shall wait wiz baited breaz as to what to do next.

[Braden]

*Henri now stands. He looks visibly upset*

My Lords,

I would be lying if I did not say that I am distressed about these developments. Whilst it was a shame my father felt it necessary to announce that he would be Seneschal, it was a more than acceptable choice. Not only as it was his given right to do so but, not intending any offence, perhaps the King deemed the potential candidates not sufficient.

However, we now find that my father has veto’d three of the seven proposed Edicts? This leaves us with what?? My dreams of a crusade against the Moors now gone, even though only last session the King was SO strongly in favour of it, we are FORCED to become occupiers of Albion also with all that entails.

My lords…we became invaders not only to depose Guilliam who had fallen so far as to have become Excommunicated by His Holiness, but also to free our historic lands from the English yoke. We did both those things…but…for our shame we have now become the worse sort of invader. Unbidden, unwanted, perhaps even unwelcome. We have seized not only provinces but the very core of another free kingdom.

Whichever way this is dressed up my lords this is a sorry day. We had the might and the right to do what we did but do we have the RIGHT to continue on this course? Where did our intentions to depose Guilliam and free the English disappear to?

Where stands Edict 3.7 now? We have no Edict to pursue the Moors into Iberia and yet the Edict stands, does it stand as a proof for us should we now embark on war into the peninsular?

I am very interested to hear from our King his vision for the next years in his direct charge.

However shocked and upset I am at this time, the King is my father and as such I can only believe his intentions are honourable. Is all expansion now to cease, all wars to be addressed and peace be forced by any means needed? Perhaps this is what is planned for us now and perhaps my father felt that only he could have the authority to prevent some of us…

*Henri casts a glance to his elder brother*

…from pursuing more personal agenda’s for personal gain.

*Henri bows and sits, far more composed than when he stood*

[TinCow]

It seems that many in this body feel as I do about the King's actions. Perhaps it is time to express our displeasure in the manner to which we are entitled by law. I encourage all nobles to refuse to aid the King in the occupation of England. All nobles in England should return to the continent, with all military strength they possess. I further urge that all nobles deny the King the use of their provinces for the purposes of recruitment to defend the English provinces. If the King wants England so badly, let him hold it himself with his own resources. The Counseil is more than capable of governing France while the King is off in the north gratifying his personal ambitions.

[Braden]

*Henri’s face turns ashen and he mutters to himself*

..oh my…

[Vladimir]

*Gontran mutters orders to his squire, who then bolts out of the hall*

[TinCow]

Christophe raises an eyebrow.

Is what I suggest really so attrocious? The voting shows that this body overwhelmingly supports a complete withdrawal from England. Indeed, only one noble in all of France voted against Edict 3.1, and only two voted against Edict 3.3. We are clearly all agreed on the situation, yet the King has chosen to pursue his own course on this matter in direct affront to the near unanimous agreement of the nobility.

This is not England. The King of France does not tell us what to do in our own lands. We are sovereign in our territory which we hold by rights independent of the Crown. We are free BY LAW to deny the King the support of our lands if we disagree with his policies. Indeed, this very fact may be why the King seeks to rule all of England. In that country, the King rules absolute and his nobles can be countermanded even in their own homes. If Philippe prefers to be King of England rather than King of France, so be it. Let him go and rule that island. I, for one, choose to remain a Frenchman.

[Braden]

*Henri seems nervous but rises to speak anyway*

My Lord..erm…I can only speak for myself in this matter.

Atrocious? Perhaps not, but the King is my father and his blood flows in my veins also so such organised disobedience perhaps not only threatens the King but also myself.

I find myself disagreeing with the King but honour-bound to be loyal to my family.

I believe an English Sergeant in my mercenary company has a saying “Trapped between a rock and a hard place”, I believe it quite apt for my predicament at this time.

So, you must understand my shock at your proposal.

*Henri sits again with a sigh*

[AussieGiant]

Alain takes a moment to hold the gaze of Raymond and Hugues.