Democracy means voting for your friendly neighborhood dictator

[rvg]

Are you sure this lesser evil is really needed? Don't you think this choice can backfire?

Anything can backfire, but leaving Afghanistan to the Taliban vultures is *guaranteed* to backfire.

[Prince Cobra]

Anything can backfire, but leaving Afghanistan to the Taliban vultures is *guaranteed* to backfire.

My question was: do you think Karzai is able to stop the Talibans?

[rvg]

My question was: do you think Karzai is able to stop the Talibans?

Hell no. That's why we should stay there.

[HopAlongBunny]

I think Banquo's Ghost sums up the situation quite well.

Installing a Western style democracy would probably involve eliminating the Taliban; "neutralizing" the present warlords...and their clique...to the 3rd generation; imposing the "rule of law" through martial law (at least initially); finally getting the remaining ppl to agree that all of the above was a swell idea and for their good really...

Of course the above prescription ignores any thought of the legitimacy of the regime in the eyes of the ppl it was imposed upon. We can work that out over time...(return to beginning of process)

[rory_20_uk]

I think Banquo's Ghost sums up the situation quite well.

Installing a Western style democracy would probably involve eliminating the Taliban; "neutralizing" the present warlords...and their clique...to the 3rd generation; imposing the "rule of law" through martial law (at least initially); finally getting the remaining ppl to agree that all of the above was a swell idea and for their good really...

Of course the above prescription ignores any thought of the legitimacy of the regime in the eyes of the ppl it was imposed upon. We can work that out over time...(return to beginning of process)

What gives us the right to do that? Considering the massive effort involved there are many other countries who'se problems are tiny in comparison and the money would be better spent removing corruption, improving facilities, siting clinics etc etc - all the same things, without the fighting and the bombing - and genuinely wanted by the locals!

When the rest of the world is a Utopia, then we can try to sort out the willfully backward, barbaric corrupt dumps.

[rvg]

When the rest of the world is a Utopia, then we can try to sort out the willfully backward, barbaric corrupt dumps.

The problem is that this willful, corrupt barbarism has a tendency to spread like an infectious disease. For example, if we withdraw from Afghanistan, then the Taliban after overpowering the regime in Kabul, will turn its eyes outward, to Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. We are basically containing a fire so that it does not engulf the entire region.

[Lemur]

[I]f we withdraw from Afghanistan, then the Taliban after overpowering the regime in Kabul, will turn its eyes outward, to Pakistan [...]

Ummm ... you do know where the Taliban came from, right? And who their biggest backers are?

[HoreTore]

The problem is that this willful, corrupt barbarism has a tendency to spread like an infectious disease. For example, if we withdraw from Afghanistan, then the Taliban after overpowering the regime in Kabul, will turn its eyes outward, to Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. We are basically containing a fire so that it does not engulf the entire region.

Uhm....

Just like they did after they overthrew the Mujahedin and ruled until 2001?

Oh wait, they didn't....

[Banquo's Ghost]

The problem is that this willful, corrupt barbarism has a tendency to spread like an infectious disease. For example, if we withdraw from Afghanistan, then the Taliban after overpowering the regime in Kabul, will turn its eyes outward, to Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. We are basically containing a fire so that it does not engulf the entire region.

Completely wrong. The Taliban has its base in the Pashtun tribes - probably around 42% of Afghanistan's population. The Tajiks and other ethnicities in the north hate them with a passion. In 2001, Iran was a significant ally to the US precisely because they don't like the Taliban either. As Lemur notes, Pakistan has its problems already because of the Pashtun areas. China has its Uighurs, who are not fundamentalist so much as nationalist.

Really, it's one dimensional thinking like this that gets the West into these debacles.

[rory_20_uk]

The problem is that this willful, corrupt barbarism has a tendency to spread like an infectious disease. For example, if we withdraw from Afghanistan, then the Taliban after overpowering the regime in Kabul, will turn its eyes outward, to Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, etc. We are basically containing a fire so that it does not engulf the entire region.

Ah, so a modern "domino theory". Worked well last time, eh?

Containing would be to support the countries around the perimiter where there is a chance that help would be welcomed, set up small outposts of locals with international oversight / hardware, kill teams of specialists to preferably insert and arrest suspects rather than missiles from afar.

[HopAlongBunny]

What gives us the right to do that? Considering the massive effort involved there are many other countries who'se problems are tiny in comparison and the money would be better spent removing corruption, improving facilities, siting clinics etc etc - all the same things, without the fighting and the bombing - and genuinely wanted by the locals!

yes

[Pannonian]

The invasion of Afghanistan was all about avenging 911. Which is fair enough. If one wants to be respected, if one is attacked like that, it's fair game to go to the origin of the attacks, and smash things up a bit. The problem is extending that mission to incorporate other parameters of success, but still using the justification of 911. If success is to be measured by cutting down on the opium supply, there are other, more effective ways of doing so than building a democracy in an environment that is hostile to that. If success is to be measured by cutting down on the fundie export supply, there are other, more effective ways of doing so than blowing things up in a place that is nothing more than a battlefield for them. For the former, legalising and controlling opium-derived products is far cheaper, far more effective and beneficial than blowing things up. For the latter, it's Pakistan and Saudi Arabia that you should be looking at, not Afghanistan.

[Husar]

Rory seems to be going for a similar approach to that used by special forces teams in the mountains of Vietnam that worked quite well in terms of keeping the Vietcong out.