Child dies due to faith healing; parents get 6 months of jail time

[jabarto]

Seems there's been a lot of judicial misconduct lately. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8294225.stm

Give people freedom of conscience, you thought police.

Your "freedom of conscience" ends when it intrudes on the rights of others.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Seems there's been a lot of judicial misconduct lately. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8294225.stm



Your "freedom of conscience" ends when it intrudes on the rights of others.

Actually, I'd say that sentence was quite fair, really. A longer prison term would merely expose them to the viscitudes of the system, and wouldn't teach them anything. They aren't "bad" people.

As far as this case goes, there's not difference between a priest and a judge in this instance. That's why marriage has been defined as between a man and a woman in the UK.

[HoreTore]

Seems there's been a lot of judicial misconduct lately. - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8294225.stm

....Six months for MURDER?!??!?!

[HoreTore]

Hell, isn't the current POTUS a child of an interracial(even if short-lived) wedding? Some are really not awar of the era they're living in.....

Yup, and the worst kind too, with european mother and african father.

Dem blackies be stealin' our womenz!!11

[jabarto]

They aren't "bad" people.

I'm not a fan of egregious prison terms myself but good god, this is about as clear-cut as you can get; what they did was manslaughter and the judge should be disbarred.

[HoreTore]

I'm not a fan of egregious prison terms myself but good god, this is about as clear-cut as you can get; what they did was manslaughter and the judge should be disbarred.

I'd say it's a clear case of premeditated murder. The child had diabetes, that's not an "instant kill"-disease, the child would've been sick for years, and the parents refused her medical treatment all those years.

10 years minimum.

And yes, these people are bad people. They killed off their own child, that automatically makes you scum.

[Samurai Waki]

I'm not a fan of egregious prison terms myself but good god, this is about as clear-cut as you can get; what they did was manslaughter and the judge should be disbarred.

Agreed... the whole case had the horrendous stench of favoritism, after reading case notes on it. The prosecution even seemed to be less than enthusiastic about putting these people in prison. It should get an IA Review, but I doubt that will happen.

[jabarto]

And I just found out about another similar case from a while back. I think I'll make a new thread for this topic so this one doesn't get derailed.

[jabarto]

This is a continuation of something I posted in the thread about the judge refusing to marry interracial couples.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8294225.stm

So the basic story here is that an 11 year old girl died because her parents refused to secure medical attention for her, favoring "faith healing" instead. Surely they get slapped with manslaughter charges, right? Nope. They get 6 months in jail, and not even a continuous sentence.

And a similar example from much earlier:

http://oregonfaithreport.com/2009/10...eath-of-child/

The judge should be disbarred and the parents should get manslaughter - if not homicide - charges. But beyond that, I can't help but wonder aloud if this sort of thing would fly if the parent's were any religion other than Christian.

So anyway, we've got an ineffctual jail term, a crooked judge, and a dead child. I'm really at a loss for words here.

[HoreTore]

As I said in the other thread; this is premeditated murder. Diabetes isn't something that kills instantly, so they've known about it for years and not done anything at all.

10 years minimum. deleted by moderator

And to top it off; it wouldn't surprise me if these people were "pro-life"...

[Idaho]

But beyond that, I can't help but wonder aloud if this sort of thing would fly if the parent's were any religion other than Christian.

Not only would it not fly, but the respective religion would be vilified and condemned.

[jabarto]

As I said in the other thread; this is premeditated murder. Diabetes isn't something that kills instantly, so they've known about it for years and not done anything at all.

10 years minimum. With the customary prison rapes, of course.

And to top it off; it wouldn't surprise me if these people were "pro-life"...

That reminds me of a post I read on the forum where I first read about this:

I know KillerJunglist posted on this a few pages back, but I think it's really necessary to step away from the religious side of the argument taking place to remind everyone of just how much of a painful death this couple's daughter died:

I've been an insulin-dependent diabetic since I was five. I've run up both sides of the blood sugar scale, from having seizures on the low end to ending up in the hospital due to extreme ketoacidosis on the high end. Does anyone know what ketoacidosis is?

1) If you cannot produce or process enough insulin, your blood sugar starts to rise. Unfortunately for diabetics, insulin is the only method of processing glucose in the blood.

2) Your body has three sources of energy: carbohydrates, fat, and muscle. If you cannot process carbohydrates, it moves to burning fat. Using fat as an energy source releases acids into your muscle tissue; the effect feels something like your entire body being on fire every time you move. It hurts to breathe.

3) As you continue downwards, you get nauseous. With a blood sugar over 600 mg/dl, most glucometers can't even measure what your actual reading is. You have to piss every ten minutes, and if you can control your stomach, you want to puke every half hour or so.

4) Once your body cannot burn fat as an energy source any more, it moves on to burning muscles. The level of pain you experience here is almost beyond words; you can't even move without crying in agony. You're about a day away from dying.

I've had this happen enough times to know that you don't want to get any further than (3). I have ended up in the hospital after reaching this point. To see that this girl actually died from this sort of problem. The very idea that "faith" would somehow kick about 50 units of insulin into her bloodstream is laughable at best, and deplorable at worst.

My only hope is that these people will get their asses handed to them in appeals court for being stupid [snip] who can't wrap their heads around the idea that waiting around for God to save their daughter wasn't working by day 2.

That said, I wouldn't take the wishing of prison rape on them lightly.

[HoreTore]

That said, I wouldn't take the wishing of prison rape on them lightly.

Do something against children, and you're the lowest of the low in a prison. Violence and gang rapes are unavoidable, really. Basic prison justice...

At least that's how it works here....

[naut]

A friend of mine had a brilliant idea.

They should get 6 months community service in a hospital. Then they could see first hand the power of modern medicine. And if they still don't get the message, send them to prison.

[InsaneApache]

As Tribes is away on 'gardening leave', I'll fill in for him.

Bollox.

[Strike For The South]

Idoits.

I'm pretty sure this falls under the clear and present danger statue we use to put away the communists, why can't we use that here.

[LittleGrizzly]

Just out of casual interest did they use faith defence...? Or would it just be silly to not get a professional and wait for god to magic up your desired outcome ?

Maybe thier waiting on a faith escape....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Amazing how the same people who said people were "sick" for wanting that Belgian guy that stabbed all those babies to get a longer sentence, suddenly demand justice for people who caused their child's death through their religious beliefs.

I thought it was all about rehabilitation? How is prison supposed to 'rehabilitate' these people?

[Louis VI the Fat]

One parent will serve the term in March and the other in September. The judge told the Neumanns this would give them time to "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this".

He added that they were "very good people, raising their family, who made a bad decision, a reckless decision". He added: "God probably works through other people, some of them doctors."

I'm more worried about this than about the death of the child. Outrageous. A judge of the same cult judging fellow cultists.

America has a law, and reason. That ought to be the guiding principle of a judge. Not the membership or not of the same persuasion as s/he himself.

Faith replacing medicine, and cult membership replacing justice. What a travesty. This would not not stand if race instead of faith was at the basis of this case. ('You are good White people. I'll excuse you for killing a negro. The White race works through your hands')

///

I think six months is about right. My sense of justice does not really cry for excessively long imprisonment.
These parents are a mere symptom of a larger wrong. They were send as children to authorities who told them a Supreme Being interferes in their lives. Talks to them directly. Hears their prayers. They were told by another authority, their teacher, that this Being created the world by his own hands, and that they should mistrust rational science. They are told as adults by another authority, a judge, that this Supreme Being will be the one to pass judgement on them, so that He should be the guiding principle of their conscience and their actions, instead of the words and deeds of their fellow man.

So all that is their fault, really, is actually taking these authorities for their word.

Perhaps interpreting their words unconventionally. Who can blame them? 'Jesus heals, you need to pray, he will hear you! Oh, but you do need to call a doctor, because Jesus might, in fact, not hear you after all'. This ambiguity is too much for most minds.


So I say, in a theocracy, as is the case here, one can scarcely blame the individual. Not these small-minded simple folk, but their judge, their creationist teacher and their priest should stand trial.

[Strike For The South]

I'm more worried about this than about the death of the child. Outrageous. A judge of the same cult judging fellow cultists.

America has a law, and reason. That ought to be the guiding principle of a judge. Not the membership or not of the same persuasion as s/he himself.

Faith replacing medicine, and cult membership replacing justice. What a travesty. This would not not stand if race instead of faith was at the basis of this case. ('You are good White people. I'll excuse you for killing a negro. The White race works through your hands')

///

I think six months is about right. My sense of justice does not really cry for excessively long imprisonment.
These parents are a mere symptom of a larger wrong. They were send as children to authorities who told them a Supreme Being interferes in their lives. Talks to them directly. Hears their prayers. They were told by another authority, their teacher, that this Being created the world by his own hands, and that they should mistrust rational science. They are told as adults by another authority, a judge, that this Supreme Being will be the one to pass judgement on them, so that He should be the guiding principle of their conscience and their actions, instead of the words and deeds of their fellow man.

So all that is their fault, really, is actually taking these authorities for their word.

Perhaps interpreting their words unconventionally. Who can blame them? 'Jesus will heal, you need to pray, he will hear you! Oh, but you do need to call a doctor, because he really want'. This ambiguity is too much for most minds.


So I say, in a theocracy, as is the case here, one can scarcely blame the individual. Not these smallminded simple folk, but their judge, their creationist teacher and their priest should stand trial.

[Andres]

I'm more worried about this than about the death of the child. Outrageous. A judge of the same cult judging fellow cultists.

America has a law, and reason. That ought to be the guiding principle of a judge. Not the membership or not of the same persuasion as s/he himself.

Faith replacing medicine, and cult membership replacing justice. What a travesty. This would not not stand if race instead of faith was at the basis of this case. ('You are good White people. I'll excuse you for killing a negro. The White race works through your hands')

///

I concur.

What about the impartiality of the judge? Isn't that a fundamental principle in the US as well? This judge is clearly not impartial. A disgrace

To make it worse, he brings God into his judgement. Religion has nothing to do with the law and doesn't belong in the motivation of a verdict

[Samurai Waki]

I concur.

What about the impartiality of the judge? Isn't that a fundamental principle in the US as well? This judge is clearly not impartial. A disgrace

To make it worse, he brings God into his judgement. Religion has nothing to do with the law and doesn't belong in the motivation of a verdict

Yep. We were just talking about this today during class. I wouldn't think Wisconsin would be so daft as to chair an outspoken Christian Judge to rule on a case involving the Christian Religion. The state messed up big time, but like I said, I'm not sure if it warrants The BIA commissioning a Review of the Case, just because they disagree with the verdict. Either way, they're trying to get an appeal, and they may have messed up big time in making that decision, if the next Judge feels they got off too lightly.

[jabarto]

EDIT: Nevermind, misread the article I was going to post. Nothing to see here.

[Papewaio]

Meh, it doesn't matter what they believe, Evolution wins yet again.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Meh, it doesn't matter what they believe, Evolution wins yet again.

What?

[Beskar]

He is claiming Social Darwinism.

[naut]

Meh, it doesn't matter what they believe, Evolution wins yet again.

In a morbid way I concur.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm more worried about this than about the death of the child. Outrageous. A judge of the same cult judging fellow cultists.

America has a law, and reason. That ought to be the guiding principle of a judge. Not the membership or not of the same persuasion as s/he himself.

Faith replacing medicine, and cult membership replacing justice. What a travesty. This would not not stand if race instead of faith was at the basis of this case. ('You are good White people. I'll excuse you for killing a negro. The White race works through your hands')

///

I think six months is about right. My sense of justice does not really cry for excessively long imprisonment.
These parents are a mere symptom of a larger wrong. They were send as children to authorities who told them a Supreme Being interferes in their lives. Talks to them directly. Hears their prayers. They were told by another authority, their teacher, that this Being created the world by his own hands, and that they should mistrust rational science. They are told as adults by another authority, a judge, that this Supreme Being will be the one to pass judgement on them, so that He should be the guiding principle of their conscience and their actions, instead of the words and deeds of their fellow man.

So all that is their fault, really, is actually taking these authorities for their word.

Perhaps interpreting their words unconventionally. Who can blame them? 'Jesus heals, you need to pray, he will hear you! Oh, but you do need to call a doctor, because Jesus might, in fact, not hear you after all'. This ambiguity is too much for most minds.


So I say, in a theocracy, as is the case here, one can scarcely blame the individual. Not these small-minded simple folk, but their judge, their creationist teacher and their priest should stand trial.

Wonderful post, Louis.

[Papewaio]

What I'm saying is that they have already been sentenced by the laws of nature. Our justice system pales in comparison to them cutting off the branches of their own tree.

The happiness is not aimed at the death of the child, it is aimed at how puny our system of laws is compared with the laws of nature. Ours we can plead, bargin, parole, get let off. The other always gets its man and is fair in a very unforgiving manner. Mind you just because we all die doesn't mean we should be giving the system an assist.

[Viking]

Until faith healing or similar has been shown to have genetical connections, I remain unconvinced that we're actually witnessing some sort of evolution..