Shooting At Ft.Hood

[Husar]

Ohhhhhhh poor guy he was just too much a peaceful person to give them a proper hit on the nose, and than it all went wrong you can take that for only so long after all, it became too distressing and he really tried but they simply don't understand him, howling to the moon is a great sign of respect. There is no excuse for what he did, no justification whatsoever.

But there is a reason. You can either stop giving people reasons to do such things or keep wondering why "they're all just nuts".
I'm not saying give in to every demand but to stop harassment is not too much to ask, or is it?

[Furunculus]

i first heard of this story last night from this very thread, and in all honesty wasn't particularly interested in the story of another nutcase going WACO on his neighbours. i got facts, i digested them, i left.

but we had a guest staying who is a card carrying guardianista, and she stuck bbc iplayer on to watch the morning news.................................................. and in five minutes of reporting I did not hear the word "muslim" once, and i got the impression that they didn't want to speak his name more than necessary because it sounded, you know, too muslim.

thank god the BBC is here to protect us proles from the dangerous extremes of our own minds!

[Fragony]

But there is a reason. You can either stop giving people reasons to do such things or keep wondering why "they're all just nuts".
I'm not saying give in to every demand but to stop harassment is not too much to ask, or is it?

If you think they are all nuts you are nuts, but if this happened because someone's oh so delicate feelings were just forcing him into a frenzy and we could have done so much more than I respectfully disagree with the concept

[KukriKhan]

Ok, I'll rephrase: What selection procedures allow a potential mass murderer to pass and become an officer?

For the record: US Army doctors are hired and managed separately from other officers (infantry, armor, cavalry, etc.). So are Army lawyers. The doc's and lawyers start out as Captains, unlike infantry guys who start as 2nd lieutenants.

To directly answer your question: the selection procedures are managed by guys just like him (army doc's; including army psychiatrists). He and his fellow army shrinks monitor and treat the wider population of soldiers. But who monitors and treats the guys who monitor and treat? That link apparently got skipped/overlooked.

[Vuk]

Interesting article...

On a form filled out by those seeking spouses through a program at the mosque, Hasan listed his birthplace as Arlington, Va., but his nationality as Palestinian, Khan said.

"I don't know why he listed Palestinian," Khan said, "He was not born in Palestine."

I am sure that religion had nothing to do with it.
The guys loyalties obviously lay elsewhere. He should not have been in the military. It is not (as far as I am aware) a crime to not support US wars (and shouldn't be either), but it is the job of the military to fight those wars. If you do not support them, or are not willing to do your duty, you should be kicked out. Of course then they would be facing charges of discrimination...

[Vuk]

Allah Akbar!
Definately NOT religious!

[KukriKhan]

Apparently, HERE is where he (Hasan) actually worked.

Mission

The Mission of the Resilience and Restoration Center (R&R Center) is to provide outpatient psychological and consultation services as appropriate to maintain the mental health of active-duty personnel. The R&R Center is staffed with active-duty and civilian professional staff including psychiatrists, psychiatric nurse practitioners, clinical psychologists, licensed professional counselors, social workers, and psychology technicians.

Warrior Combat Stress Reset Camp: 2-week intensive outpatient treatment program incorporating alternative treatment approaches for treatment of moderate to severe post traumatic stress symptoms

Just speculating here: maybe he flipped out after taking care of so many guys who had either themselves flipped out, or were about to.

[al Roumi]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/am...042388762.html

"The suspect has been named as Major Nidal Malik Hasan, a 39-year-old army psychiatrist.

"He became a psychiatrist at the Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington ... where he counselled soldiers coming back from war.

"Every day, he heard how horrible those stories were and he really started to question the wars, according to what his cousin and sources who knew him said.

"Hasan became more devout in his religion and started arguing with soldiers about whether the wars were right or not, to the point where he received disciplinary action and negative work reviews.


"He was transferred to the medical facility here at Fort Hood, where apparently these feelings continued.

"It raises a major question - how can a person responsible for the mental health of soldiers returning [from war] be allowed to continue in this profession when he has these kinds of questions himself?"

The wider repercussions of this are very troubling, as evidenced by the posts of the more rabid crazies on this forum.

[Vuk]

More than one soldier report that. Guy DEFINITELY was not religiously motivated. Glad all you intellectuals established that for me.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My condolences and prayers are with the families of those killed in this attack. As of this morning, the media is reporting 13 dead and 30 injured to varying degrees. The lone attacker was, apparently, shot 4 times by a female civilian security officer and is listed in critical but stable condition. Whether Maj. Hasan will survive or not is uknown at present.

MRD: You are quite right, assuming Maj. Hasan did what has been alleged (and there is little doubt), he qualifies for the full Danny Deever treatment. Like you, however, I suspect that it will not happen.

Now, a little note Ex Moderatica:

All of you WILL discuss this in a relatively controlled and polite manner or the thread will cease and the infractions will fly. You are all well aware of the potential contentiousness of some of the issues this incident raises, so please exercise caution.

[Andres]

Yes, Vuk, he yelled "Allah Akhbar".

Thank you for giving us conclusive evidence that this man was not just a crazy nutjob, but a Muslim crazy nutjob.

He was also a doctor.

I blame studying medicin for what happened. Rory should be locked up. After all 43 people got shot by a doctor and he's a doctor. Maybe you should kick all doctors out of your country. And let's ban GTA while we're at it. Just talking about such measures make me feel safer already.[/sarcasm]

[Vuk]

Yes, Vuk, he yelled "Allah Akhbar".

Thank you for giving us conclusive evidence that this man was not just a crazy nutjob, but a Muslim crazy nutjob.

He was also a doctor.

I blame studying medicin for what happened. Rory should be locked up. After all 43 people got shot by a doctor and he's a doctor. Maybe you should kick all doctors out of your country. And let's ban GTA while we're at it. Just talking about such measures make me feel safer already.[/sarcasm]

Andres, that is a phrase used by Jihadists to strike fear into their enemies hearts. You think that that is not evidence that he is a Jihadist?

EDIT: His height, medical study, etc are pretty irrelevant as motivations I think. There is no positive evidence that they motivated him, but there is evidence that his religion did. He did not scream "DOCTORS RULE!", He screamed "ALLAH AKHBAR!". That is what is what we know is relevant. He is a Jihadist. Don't you think that is important? Esp considering his past?

[al Roumi]

Andres, that is a phrase used by Jihadists to strike fear into their enemies hearts. You think that that is not evidence that he is a Jihadist?

Nonsense. Do you know what "Allahu Akbar" means?? God is great.

It is used in normal, daily speech as a phrase to explain gratefulness, pleasure and surprise.

The reason people might find it fearful is the context in which it is used by those ready to use violence: to at once justify a violent action and also surrender their fates to the whim of god.

Saying Allahu akbar before entering combat or whatever is like praying for god to be on your side -and to judge you fairly.

Your comment would mean that western armies are fanatical and scary for having Chaplins and conducting services before a mission.

[Fragony]

Andres, that is a phrase used by Jihadists to strike fear into their enemies hearts. You think that that is not evidence that he is a Jihadist?

Jihadists are a little bit smarter than this they don't tell their knowologues that they are cracking, this was a loon and it was terrible, but there really isn't anything more to it.

[Vuk]

Nonsense. Do you know what "Allahu Akbar" means?? God is great.

It is used in normal, daily speech as a phrase to explain gratefulness, pleasure and surprise.

The reason people might find it fearful is the context in which it is used by those ready to use violence: to at once justify a violent action and also surrender their fates to the whim of god.

Saying Allahu akbar before entering combat or whatever is like praying for god to be on your side -and to judge you fairly.

Your comment would mean that western armies are fanatical and scary for having Chaplins and conducting services before a mission.

Yes, I know what it means. It is a prayer of sorts, but it is also meant to show their conviction, and proclaim it before the world...right before they die. They are aware that displaying their conviction like that makes their enemies afraid. It was actually an MSNBC article I read where a psychologist saying that it was used to strike fear into people's hearts.

[Vuk]

Jihadists are a little bit smarter than this they don't tell their knowologues that they are cracking, this was a loon and it was terrible, but there really isn't anything more to it.

At that poing they don't care Frag. They are expecting to die and want to kill as many infidels as they can for their god.

[Fragony]

At that poing they don't care Frag. They are expecting to die and want to kill as many infidels as they can for their god.

c
No they don't, at times like this it's best to order a pizza, give the lady a little love, and have some coffee when you wake up. Calm down and get a grip.

[Vuk]

c
No they don't, at times like this it's best to order a pizza, give the lady a little love, and have some coffee when you wake up. Calm down and get a grip.

lol, he did not have a lady. :P

[al Roumi]

Come on man, I don't think that would be the first reason why they thought to say it - more a consequence of its effect and their resolution.

If I were a Taliban, I'd be scared by the sound of rotor-blades, jet engines and anything associated to any advantage the enemy might have over me.

Plus, I wouldn't be surprised if any Muslim soldiers, be they Taliban in Pakistan, Saudi military or Afghan National Army said "Allahu Akbar" before combat. Just as an English speaking one might say good luck to his mates.

[Andres]

They are expecting to die and want to kill as many (...) as they can (...)

Like any other nutjob who starts shooting random people for no reason.

Todays' nutjob happens to be a muslim, so he yells "allah akhbar" when he starts killing.

What's the difference with the other wacko's who kill people for no reason? The result stays the same, doesn't it? Alot of innocent people dead because of the madness of one person.

Why is the fact that this man was a muslim so important for you? Why is it relevant? Why does it matter?

[Vuk]

Like any other nutjob who starts shooting random people for no reason.

Todays' nutjob happens to be a muslim, so he yells "allah akhbar" when he starts killing.

What's the difference with the other wacko's who kill people for no reason? The result stays the same, doesn't it? Alot of innocent people dead because of the madness of one person.

Why is the fact that this man was a muslim so important for you? Why is it relevant? Why does it matter?

This is why, because there are lots of harmless nutjobs out there. You need something to motivate them to turn violent. Those motivations are very dangerous. Radical islam is one of those that preys on unhinged nuts like him. A wacko is not necassarily dangerous. What makes him dangerous is what motivates him to be a violent nutjob. In this case, it seems to be radical islam that is the culprit. The motivation is very important.

[al Roumi]

Why is the fact that this man was a muslim so important for you? Why is it relevant? Why does it matter?

Amen.

Or, Allahu Akbar -there is clarity and sense in the words of the moderator!

[Vuk]

Amen.

Or, Allahu Akbar -there is clarity and sense in the words of the moderator!

Why? Isn't the whole point of this discussion to figure out the motives? Isn't that the mystery that everyone is trying to figure out? Is it that when it is one that you don't like you suddenly aren't interested in motive? No offense, really, but I cannot understand how a motive is irrelevant in a discussion about motive!

[Husar]

If you think they are all nuts you are nuts, but if this happened because someone's oh so delicate feelings were just forcing him into a frenzy and we could have done so much more than I respectfully disagree with the concept

Have you every been harassed or bullied for years? Well, I've been and at times i wanted to kill them all in brutal ways. I didn't act on it as I knew it was wrong but then he is not me and everyone reacts differently.

[Vuk]

Have you every been harassed or bullied for years? Well, I've been and at times i wanted to kill them all in brutal ways. I didn't act on it as I knew it was wrong but then he is not me and everyone reacts differently.

Everyone feels hostile toward people at times. The difference between a sane and insane person is A) Why they feel that way. and B) How they actually act. He obviously had mental problems if he was so committed that he would give up his own life (which he obviously knew would happen). Did anyone ever consider that if he was a religious extremist, the reason he did it may be so he did not have to fight his fellow terrorists in the Middle East? That would explain why he was so afraid of going over. He would feel like a traitor.

[al Roumi]

Why? Isn't the whole point of this discussion to figure out the motives? Isn't that the mystery that everyone is trying to figure out? Is it that when it is one that you don't like you suddenly aren't interested in motive? No offense, really, but I cannot understand how a motive is irrelevant in a discussion about motive!

Fair point, but mine was that you (and others) are making wider assertions based on this single reprehensible and tragic event, which only widens the turmoil caused by it.

To blandly assert that anyone saying Allahu Akbar is a "Jihadi" is naive, ignorant and frankly irresponsible.

By the way, "Jihad" means "Struggle" and can be used in much the way as the west uses the term "crusade" -which incidentaly excites equal horror to an Islamic audience as "Jihad" does to a Western one.

[Fixiwee]

What about his supervisor? A muslim who is against the Iraq/Afganistan war, who wants to leave the military, who is mobbed because of his religion, who wants the troops to come home, who as a psychiatrist gets to hear all the traumatic experiences and personal catastophies unfiltered, probably has to work more then 40 hours a week, sending someone like him to Iraq or Afganistan against his will is really not a smart psychological decission. That the risk in such a situation for a man to explode and to loose the nerves being exorbitant greater should be clear to everyone, even american generals. A person like him acts like this because of sheer desperation and not because of idealogy.

(original text by El Senor Wolflero)

[Vuk]

Fair point, but mine was that you (and others) are making wider assertions based on this single reprehensible and tragic event, which only widens the turmoil caused by it.

To blandly assert that anyone saying Allahu Akbar is a "Jihadi" is naive, ignorant and frankly irresponsible.

By the way, "Jihad" means "Struggle" and can be used in much the way as the west uses the term "crusade" -which incidentaly excites equal horror to an Islamic audience as "Jihad" does to a Western one.

I know what Jihad means, and I know about the greater and lesser Jihad. Thank you for asserting that I am ignorant for disagreeing with you.
Crusades and Jihads are quite different from each other (something I am sure you know), but I do not understand what Crusades have to do with anything. I think that in your zeal you have read far too much into what I said. I am not condemning "Eastern" things as you seem to imply, nor am I condemning muslims. Most of this thread has been devoted to arguing that religion did not play a role. I simply pointed out that yes, religion was a factor. And I did not say that anyone who says Allah Akhbar is a "Jihadi", that is you again reading too much into my posts. I said that someone who has a record of defending terrorists and condemning wars against them shouting it before he breaks out shooting his "comrades" is a pretty good sign that he is a Jihadist. There is a really big difference.

[Vuk]

What about his supervisor? A muslim who is against the Iraq/Afganistan war, who wants to leave the military, who is mobbed because of his religion, who wants the troops to come home, who as a psychiatrist gets to hear all the traumatic experiences and personal catastophies unfiltered, probably has to work more then 40 hours a week, sending someone like him to Iraq or Afganistan against his will is really not a smart psychological decission. That the risk in such a situation for a man to explode and to loose the nerves being exorbitant greater should be clear to everyone, even american generals. A person like him acts like this because of sheer desperation and not because of idealogy.

(original text by El Senor Wolflero)

Sorry, I don't buy that. There seems to be pretty good evidence that he was idologically driven, whether stress and fear played a part or not (which it very well may have, and probably did).

[Agent Miles]

Human tragedy has no politics or religion. My condolences to all families concerned, even Hasan’s. Who can really say why some men hide their personal demons behind wider causes? Cowards pretend to be heroes and psychotics pretend to be psychiatrists. Everyone can join our Army, but by no means is an Army life for everyone. In February ’03 my wife and I sat in that theater on Fort Hood for my retirement briefing and we sat in the hallway of the Soldier Support Center across the street to out-process. This morning on every military post, they saluted the flag and went right back to training for the next mission.