Shooting At Ft.Hood

[Devastatin Dave]

That's not the point - the point is Obama said he would be speaking about a mass shooting and opened with a joking manner and talked about some interior department deal.

CR

Obama is such a joke, but because he's a muslim, I won't go into too much detail out of fear he might read this forum and start blowing people away because i hurt his feelings.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Funny how quick people are to say: "It's Islam's fault", while the thread below this one is about parents letting their children die. Funny that nobody states "It's Christianity's fault", while the causes are in both cases religious.

They are saying that.

Every time a mass shooting story pops up, we here at the Org like to play amateur psychiatrist and discuss what made a person do it.

Yes well, we play amateur economist, lawyer, judge, diplomat, scientist and businessman as well.

Funny how it seems like some people, when they find out that one of the motivations for a murderer might be Islam, suddenly stop wanting to discuss the shooter's motivations.

But I guess that all ends when one of the motivations might be politically incorrect.

Why does it matter? Really? One useful thing you can do after something like this is to determine the cause; try to find out why the shooter did what he did and see if you can prevent it in the future.

Deciding to put on blinders and ignore the motivations because you might not like what you see is not smart.

This is wrong. You guys are saying "He's muslim and made suspect comments then when on a shooting spree, 2+2=4 thank god fox reports it like it is". That's simplistic, and saying so isn't "politically correct" or "ignoring the facts".

Let's say someone died of a disease. Your approach is to say "well look at the facts, his hair had fallen out, that led to his death" instead of "he had cancer, the chemotherapy led to hair loss, but it wasn't enough and he died".


Now clearly his religion and the comments he made are clues and shouldn't be ignored, but I haven't seen any real evidence that the other news stations were ignoring it.

That's not the point - the point is Obama said he would be speaking about a mass shooting and opened with a joking manner and talked about some interior department deal.

CR

I watched the video. The news anchor said "we'll go now to obama where we understand he's going to comment on the shootings" but really it was a prearranged speech and he talked about the shootings since it was timely. He said his introductory bit and then talked about the shootings.

The objection to his shoutout is the same as the objections to his fist bump last year.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Funny how quick people are to say: "It's Islam's fault", while the thread below this one is about parents letting their children die. Funny that nobody states "It's Christianity's fault", while the causes are in both cases religious.

Christians were baited enough in that topic. The truth is that the parents followed a theologically incorrect opinion of Christianity (ie. they had no clue what the Bible said about such things), whereas this individual appears to follow a theologically radical version of Islam, not necessarily an incorrect one. Nobody is saying that most Muslims are like this, or that it is entirely Islam's fault, but we are saying that it is wrong to ignore the fact that Islam may have been a factor.

Now clearly his religion and the comments he made are clues and shouldn't be ignored, but I haven't seen any real evidence that the other news stations were ignoring it.

I didn't see them reporting it, and I saw at least one major newspaper say his religion was unconfirmed right after it had been confirmed by multiple independent sources. So yes, I'd say they were ignoring it. I'm not suggesting that he went on a killing spree because he was Muslim, but that a variety of issues, including his interpretation of radical Islam, may have contributed. It is wrong to ignore that his views on religion may have been a factor.

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is wrong. You guys are saying "He's muslim and made suspect comments then when on a shooting spree, 2+2=4 thank god fox reports it like it is". That's simplistic, and saying so isn't "politically correct" or "ignoring the facts".

I'm not saying he went shooting because he was Muslim. I think it was a factor, but probably not the biggest one, which was likely that he was a coward.

And I'm not talking about people calling the 'He's said Allah, he went on Jihad!' approach simplistic (I think it is simplistic); I'm talking about people saying what I quoted of Andres. You know, the people saying 'Why bother looking at motivations?' Would they be saying that if it were clear Islam was not a factor at all? That's my point.

Now clearly his religion and the comments he made are clues and shouldn't be ignored, but I haven't seen any real evidence that the other news stations were ignoring it.

Well, outside of the BBC I'd agree. But I wasn't talking about the media.

I watched the video. The news anchor said "we'll go now to obama where we understand he's going to comment on the shootings" but really it was a prearranged speech and he talked about the shootings since it was timely. He said his introductory bit and then talked about the shootings.

The objection to his shoutout is the same as the objections to his fist bump last year.

Some situations call for scrapping the prearranged schedule. And I don't think the writer of the article cares about the term 'shout-out'; it's the light hearted manner in which Obama begins his remarks. He opened up a speech where he talks about 12 soldiers being murdered with a 'shout out'.

CR

[Devastatin Dave]

I watched the video. The news anchor said "we'll go now to obama where we understand he's going to comment on the shootings" but really it was a prearranged speech and he talked about the shootings since it was timely. He said his introductory bit and then talked about the shootings.

The objection to his shoutout is the same as the objections to his fist bump last year.

He's SUPPOSE to be the commander in chief, his duty is to the military FIRST, not giving shout outs. I know thats hard to understand, but this man has no clue much like his worshippers.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I'm not saying he went shooting because he was Muslim. I think it was a factor, but probably not the biggest one, which was likely that he was a coward.

And I'm not talking about people calling the 'He's said Allah, he went on Jihad!' approach simplistic (I think it is simplistic); I'm talking about people saying what I quoted of Andres. You know, the people saying 'Why bother looking at motivations?' Would they be saying that if it were clear Islam was not a factor at all? That's my point.

Yes. A lot of the thread is just arguing between people who feel that islam is given a pass by the media and people who are worried about xenophobia. That's why people are over or under emphasizing his religion.

Some situations call for scrapping the prearranged schedule. And I don't think the writer of the article cares about the term 'shout-out'; it's the light hearted manner in which Obama begins his remarks. He opened up a speech where he talks about 12 soldiers being murdered with a 'shout out'.

CR

Oh, but the guy who wrote that article is an idiot, and this reminds me of all that "he sat and read a childrens book!!!" stuff they said about bush.

He didn't seem light hearted to me. And the speech was about something entirely different and was written previously. The audience wasn't there for a speech about ft hood, they had another issue which was presumable very important. He thanked them for having him and acknowledged them and then said his bit about the shootings.

Objecting to "shout out" is old fashioned...same as objecting to fist bump.

[Lemur]

If I may be forgiven for posting something that isn't about Obama, Fox News, Islam or the BBC, I find this kinda freaky:

Killeen, TX, the town in which Ft. Hood is situated? There was an even bigger massacre there, although I expect everyone's forgotten about it. Who knows, maybe the acts of violence really do leave an imprint on the place.

[Vuk]

If I may be forgiven for posting something that isn't about Obama, Fox News, Islam or the BBC, I find this kinda freaky:

Killeen, TX, the town in which Ft. Hood is situated? There was an even bigger massacre there, although I expect everyone's forgotten about it. Who knows, maybe the acts of violence really do leave an imprint on the place.

DRRN YOU FOR MENTIONING SOMETHING OTHER THAN OBAMA, FOX NEWS, ISLAM, OR BBC! I will never forgive you!

That said, maybe you are reading too much into a coincidence?

EDIT: I tell you what Lemur, we can take this even MORE off topic! That shooting was a conspiracy by George Bush so that he could make guns easier for his cowboy friends to carry, and this newest one was a conspiracy by Obama to show how muslims are discriminated against in the military and how treating them badly can hurt us all! BRILLIANT! Now you have to say Obama, Fox News, Islam, BBC, AND Bush! (Has there ever been a Backroom thread since 2004 where Bush was not mentioned? (usually involved in conspiracy theories :P ))

[drone]

If I may be forgiven for posting something that isn't about Obama, Fox News, Islam or the BBC, I find this kinda freaky:

Killeen, TX, the town in which Ft. Hood is situated? There was an even bigger massacre there, although I expect everyone's forgotten about it. Who knows, maybe the acts of violence really do leave an imprint on the place.

Come on, they always do things bigger in Texas!

And Hasan went to Virginia Tech.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Killeen, TX, the town in which Ft. Hood is situated? There was an even bigger massacre there, although I expect everyone's forgotten about it. Who knows, maybe the acts of violence really do leave an imprint on the place.

I don't think anybody has forgotten about that, it was where Suzanna Hupp's parents were killed and the reason for her excellent testimony thereafter.

[Meneldil]

No, his religion is of no consequence unless he made statements to the effect that his religion did play a role, which Hasan did. Ergo, the logical conclusion from past comments made by Hasan is that his faith did play a role. This doesn't mean all Muslims are like this, but it does mean he was motivated in part by radical Islam, or at least used it as an excuse. If we want to understand the shooting, that is just as relevant as any psychological disorders he may or may not have had.

Agreed. If the guy goes around shooting people while screaming a religious prayer, then religion obviously had a role into this.

It also seems quite likely that everything is tied to his religion. The guy apparently feared to fight fellow muslims, and was bullied because of his religion. In these conditions, it's quite likely that he went crazy because of all this. Which obviously doesn't mean "ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE EVIL".

It's indeed a case of some guy going nut, but it seems to me that he went nut for religious reasons.

[Hax]

Do you think Islam had anything to do with this?

Naturally not. Thing is an insane guy shot other people. Mind you, there are criminals everywhere. It's pretty much part of being a human. Most people can control themselves, though.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Agreed. If the guy goes around shooting people while screaming a religious prayer, then religion obviously had a role into this.

It also seems quite likely that everything is tied to his religion. The guy apparently feared to fight fellow muslims, and was bullied because of his religion. In these conditions, it's quite likely that he went crazy because of all this. Which obviously doesn't mean "ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE EVIL".

It's indeed a case of some guy going nut, but it seems to me that he went nut for religious reasons.

I concur.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Agreed. If the guy goes around shooting people while screaming a religious prayer, then religion obviously had a role into this.

It also seems quite likely that everything is tied to his religion. The guy apparently feared to fight fellow muslims, and was bullied because of his religion. In these conditions, it's quite likely that he went crazy because of all this. Which obviously doesn't mean "ZOMG MUSLIMS ARE EVIL".

It's indeed a case of some guy going nut, but it seems to me that he went nut for religious reasons.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I concur.

The religiousness was certainly connected:

The former imam at a Silver Spring, Md., mosque where Major Hasan worshiped for about 10 years described him as proud of his work in the Army and “very serious about his religion.” The former imam, Faizul Khan, said that Major Hasan had wanted to marry an equally religious woman but that his efforts to find one had failed.

“He wanted a woman who prayed five times a day and wears a hijab, and maybe the women he met were not complying with those things,” the former imam said.

But I think if you look at all the things that pushed him towards this, you'll find that they affected him because of his particular mental state or makeup. Many people are deeply religious and have trouble finding a wife, many soldiers have doubts about the war and don't want to be deployed, many are harassed.

I think you would have to look at the common threads between this and other mass killings. Perhaps they all are deeply unhappy, blame the institution or society at large, are so decide to take a bit of revenge with them.

Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can just because you can?...I didn't have to do this. I could have left. I could have fled. But no, I will no longer run. It's not for me. For my children, for my brothers and sisters that you [******], I did it for them… When the time came, I did it. I had to...You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today, but you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.

To say that he "went nut for religious reasons" is not accurate imo.

btw:

in another video, [Cho] compared himself to Jesus Christ,[137] explaining that his death will influence generations of "defenseless people".

[Louis VI the Fat]

I vote: Sasaki for explanatory insight.

[Husar]

and this newest one was a conspiracy by Obama to show how muslims are discriminated against in the military and how treating them badly can hurt us all!

So you're saying that a majority of people who ran amok were outsiders and/or treated badly is purely random?
Were the last five school shooters muslims or were they perhaps outsiders who often got harassed by other students? Well, I thought it was kinda obvious but it seems most here want to find some other angle here that serves the current political climate or whatever much better.

I'm waiting for the first politician to find out the guy played CounterStrike so we can finally ban it worldwide.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm waiting for the first politician to find out the guy played CounterStrike so we can finally ban it worldwide.

Speaking of which, considering this shooting took place on an army base, does this shed new light on the idea that if only there is an abundance of arms fewer shootings will occur?

I mean, apparantly the shooter had guns, and the army base had, erm, lots of guns too.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Speaking of which, considering this shooting took place on an army base, does this shed new light on the idea that if only there is an abundance of arms fewer shootings will occur?

I mean, apparantly the shooter had guns, and the army base had, erm, lots of guns too.

Apparently his victims were all unarmed, and he managed to kill a few more because it was thought that one of the victims was the shooter. Or something like that.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Speaking of which, considering this shooting took place on an army base, does this shed new light on the idea that if only there is an abundance of arms fewer shootings will occur?

I mean, apparantly the shooter had guns, and the army base had, erm, lots of guns too.

US Army bases are incredibly strict about personally owned arms; you can't carry them around with you, and some base commanders even ban (legally) carrying your own guns off the base.

EDIT: The PDF of a policy announcement by an Army Major General banning USARAK stationed soldiers from legally carrying guns in public places (in addition to on the army base), unlike civilians in Alaska (where the base is located) who can carry concealed guns without any permits.

EDIT: Info from Fort Hood:

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Pfc. Marquest Smith, on his way to Afghanistan in January, was completing routine paperwork about a bee-sting allergy when the sounds erupted.

A loud, popping noise. Moans. The sudden, urgent shout of "Gun!"

Smith poked his head over the cubicle's partition and saw an extraordinary sight: An Army officer with two guns, firing into the crowded room.

The 21-year-old Fort Worth native quickly grabbed the civilian worker who'd been helping with his paperwork and forced her under the desk. He lay low for several minutes, waiting for the shooter to run out of ammunition and wishing he, too, had a gun.

Packed into cubicles with 5-foot-high dividers, the 300 unarmed soldiers were sitting ducks. Those who weren't hit by direct fire were struck by rounds ricocheting off the desks and tile floor

CR

[Vuk]

So you're saying that a majority of people who ran amok were outsiders and/or treated badly is purely random?
Were the last five school shooters muslims or were they perhaps outsiders who often got harassed by other students? Well, I thought it was kinda obvious but it seems most here want to find some other angle here that serves the current political climate or whatever much better.

I'm waiting for the first politician to find out the guy played CounterStrike so we can finally ban it worldwide.

lmao, and you took that seriously? lolzeroo

[a completely inoffensive name]

I don't think this thread could be any worse if I even tried my best at trolling in it. I am surprised this fiasco of a debate hasn't been locked yet. Oh well, lots of lulz for me at idiotic posts.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I don't think this thread could be any worse if I even tried my best at trolling in it. I am surprised this fiasco of a debate hasn't been locked yet. Oh well, lots of lulz for me at idiotic posts.

At times of tragedy, emotions run high. Often, members express those emotions here amongst their friends and their posts may not be quite so clearly thought out as usual. Sometimes those emotions sharpen insights for those of us far away from the incident.

The Backroom is more more like a pub than a formal debating chamber. As long as the rules are observed, friends are welcome to sound off.

[Fragony]

Ok, my zeal may be the result of Fragony being over your shoulder and I can't let the sorts of things he peddles go by un-opposed.

I appologise

What, calling for restraint, be careful with making this religious, and keeping a clear head?

yeah I have done that evil me

I think we just have a nutter here.

[Samurai Waki]

He didn't get his guns from the base... that much has been made clear. The Armory would never let a Medical Psychologist no matter how high the rank free access to the Armory. Also, as has been speculated, he had to have planned the killings much in advance, so that further rules out the possibility that he could have obtained his weaponry from the armory, since inspections of inventory are quite frequent. Well, that's what the Master Sargent from the Fort Benning Armory had said over some Radio Talk Show I was listening to on the drive to school this morning, he didn't think the procedure would have been any different, if not more strict, at Ft. Hood since it's the primary base for deployment to the two major conflict zones. Could always be wrong though

[Meneldil]

To say that he "went nut for religious reasons" is not accurate imo.

btw:

The real question is, could all this have happened if the guy wasn't a faithful muslim? If he didn't have a muslim name? If he didn't give a crap about his fellow brothers-in-religion?
I'm not saying Islam pushed him to do it. I'm saying what pushed him to do it is tied to his religious views.


I'm certain we all have a killer burried deep inside of us. What made this one comes to light was what the guy perceived as an unfair treatement of his religion imo.

Now, I find it quite funny that you people keep asking "why do you care he was muslim?". As soon as a shooting happens, we discuss the shooter's background for weeks, whether said shooter was a goth, an antisocial guy, an asian, played Quack3, listened to some random bad band.
But then I don't see anyone going "why do you care he listened heavy metal/was antisocial/asian?". This politicaly correct view of the world is saddening.
Guy was a religious nutjob, felt his religion was being overly bashed (which might very well be true) and went nut. Simply scrapping the religion part because you know, "muslims are fine and dandy and facing already enough prejudice as it is" is stupid.

And the whole "shooters are insane" speech is unimaginative. Most shooters have reasons to do what they do. We might not understand them, we might find them stupid, but they're here. Insanity is used to conveniently label everything we don't understand.

[Fragony]

Screw political correction, it will no doubt be laughable, but we don't know anything yet before dragging it into the discussion as Islam instead of the guy being a muslim we are kinda missing the fact that someones brains fried, some things require more tact than others, to not make it more than it is.

[tibilicus]

The real question is, could all this have happened if the guy wasn't a faithful muslim? If he didn't have a muslim name? If he didn't give a crap about his fellow brothers-in-religion?
I'm not saying Islam pushed him to do it. I'm saying what pushed him to do it is tied to his religious views.

You don't know that yet, there's no evidence to support it either.

And what pushed him to do it was he was his own pathetic cowardice, this sort of thing happens quite regularly except obviously not on the same scale. To put it bluntly this guy would rather of died/ been arrested than be deployed..

There's absolutely zero evidence he was motivated by religion, the claim that the attack was because he might of said Alluh Akbar is ridiculous, it was to my knowledge that many Muslim devotees say this phrase in many situations as it means "God is great", Muslims use this for many reasons, it's not some kind of death cry, it's not some kind of declaration they hate the west and want to kill us all, it's no worse than a Christian crossing the cross across his chest, it's simply a deceleration of faith, and it was already established before hand that the guy was a Muslim..

To put it into simple context ever seen The Wire? Brother Mouzounne, a Nation of Islam member gets shot, as he lies there bleeding he recites the words "Aluuh Akbar" as he thinks he's about to die, does this mean he's a jihadist,? How do we not know this guy wasn't simply making a deceleration of his faith before his death? That doesn't necessarily mean he was doing it in the name of God..

I'm not trying to excuse the guys actions at all, all I'm saying is wait for the full facts and the truth to be revealed before you all jump to conclusions. The orgs full of a clever people, sadly a majority of you are displaying your ability to not think rationally, aren't waiting for the true facts to be uncovered and seem to be rushing to conclusions which cant properly be drawn up yet.

[Fisherking]

The person to blame is the shooter.

He did it to make a statement and likely to end his life.

Had it been only about deployment he could have resigned his commission and soon been back to work in most any military hospital in the states.

Military Officers have no set term of service and can basically quit.

He had other motives for staying in the Army.

His religious views may have played a part but that should no more cover the whole religion than when any other religious nut does something as tragic.

The last I heard he was unconscious.

I do so hope he recovers from his wounds and faces what he has done.

[KukriKhan]

I have questions:

1) Why did no one notice that the shooter was cracking up before the shooting?
2) Did he ever get a security clearance, requiring a background check?
3) Did he own the weapons he used?
4) What did his immediate supervisor and chain of command think of him?

In short: was this crazy incident predictable? Was it preventable?

Guilt certainly lies with the shooter; but there are probably some lessons to be learned here.