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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Does it matter really why he snapped, I'll start caring about that if it turns out there is any sort of organization behind it. Right now it's just a madman, people aren't going to get any satisfactory answers and should stop looking imho, religious nut or not in the end just a nut. What I find shocking is that all the signals were right in their face all the time and they didn't do anything, not because they didn't see it but because they were afraid to speak out because of pc-mania. In a way leftist lemmings have the blood of these soldiers on their hands this wouldn't have happened without the suffocating social control that is political correctness.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What I find shocking is that all the signals were right in their face all the time and they didn't do anything, not because they didn't see it but because they were afraid to speak out because of pc-mania. In a way leftist lemmings have the blood of these soldiers on their hands this wouldn't have happened without the suffocating social control that is political correctness.
    After some calm and reasoned posts, you have fallen prey to your anxieties again. Several of the major school shootings have been committed by people who, after the event, we have wondered aloud why the signs weren't acted upon. Interning all goths, emos and young men who write bad poetry seems to be the answer there.

    In other words, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Contrary to your assertion, I think you'll find radical Muslims are reported to the police and authorities far more often these days. Whereas I think there may well be a good reason to look hard at how these reports are dealt with (some I'm sure, are not pursued energetically because of political correctness, particularly in relation to community "leaders" such as imams, but many more are pursued very energetically against innocent persons - at least, this is the European reality) I also think that the sheer volume and often trivial nature of these reports actually overwhelm the security services. Prejudice, not political correctness, is the culprit here.

    Arresting people for wearing a beard after the hours of darkness may well satisfy you, but is likely to end up missing the real dangers. Unless it is found that this fellow was actually part of a plot, the only blood on anyone's hands is staining him.

    The paradox that interests me is that so much appears to be made of his unwillingness to serve in Afghanistan. If he was ethically against the war, he could have made a stand by refusing the order. He would have served jail time, but kept his conscience intact. If he was afraid of injury or death, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and avoid that risk by actions that guarantee his death - either there and then, or at the end of a rope/intravenous drip.

    A rampage against fellow soldiers speaks of something more malign. I have seen video footage of him doing some shopping hours before the killings and he appeared calm and engaged. Terrorists sure of their cause often appear like this once the plan is in motion - but equally, a psychological trigger can unleash the insanity otherwise repressed.

    It's baffling. And to those who ask why his reasons need to be understood, let me say that the relatives need this information. When you lose a loved one, the worst thing is to be left without knowing why. Even if it turns out that he just went mad, one can move on. "Dunno" and a shrug of the collective shoulder causes years of anxiety as to whether it could have been prevented.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    I am not trying to make anything more out of this than it is, lone shooter, religious nut, but the signals were somewhat stronger here don't you think. Nobody is going to be anxious about reporting about a goth with silly behaviour, that is not my anxiety that is simply how it is.

    Arresting people for wearing a beard after the hours of darkness may well satisfy you, but is likely to end up missing the real dangers.


    que, am I confused or just confusing
    Last edited by Fragony; 11-09-2009 at 14:45.

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    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am not trying to make anything more out of this than it is, lone shooter, religious nut, but the signals were somewhat stronger here don't you think. Nobody is going to be anxious about reporting about a goth with silly behaviour, that is not my anxiety that is simply how it is.
    I'm not sure that the signals were stronger in this case. As always, it's easier to read the omens after the event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Arresting people for wearing a beard after the hours of darkness may well satisfy you, but is likely to end up missing the real dangers.


    que, am I confused or just confusing
    Sorry, Fragony - it's a reference to an old comedy sketch about an over-zealous policeman.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    I'm not sure that the signals were stronger in this case. As always, it's easier to read the omens after the event.
    In this case that is just rediculous, he was an advicer for the Obama administration on 'certain sensitivities' this is a major fail, anybody not seing this comming or refusing to see it comming should feel kinda silly by now.

  6. #6
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
    It's baffling. And to those who ask why his reasons need to be understood, let me say that the relatives need this information.
    And another reason is that the Army needs to know. The whole idea of having an organized military is the artificial (learned) construct of "on-off" killing. Directed, managed violence. Killing only when ordered to, and stopping immediately when ordered to. Without that kind of precise control, you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

    Taking matters into your own hands is prohibited. Somehow this shooter lost (or never internalized) that trained prohibition. The army needs to know why - what step in his training got skipped, what error in leadership occurred, what detail of indoctrination got overlooked.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    And another reason is that the Army needs to know. The whole idea of having an organized military is the artificial (learned) construct of "on-off" killing. Directed, managed violence. Killing only when ordered to, and stopping immediately when ordered to. Without that kind of precise control, you don't have an army, you have an armed mob.

    Taking matters into your own hands is prohibited. Somehow this shooter lost (or never internalized) that trained prohibition. The army needs to know why - what step in his training got skipped, what error in leadership occurred, what detail of indoctrination got overlooked.
    I don’t know what he may have learned in this regard in ROTC if he was ever required to drill, but Medical Officers don’t receive much actual military training and only a little indoctrination.

    The mans warped views of Islam seem to go back as far as anyone has repotted on.

    His mother died in 2001, he held her funeral at a Mosque in New York that was also the Mosque used by some members of the 9-11 plot. It was know as a radical institution. Why? He lived in VA.

    His outbursts in medical school and at Walter Reed Medical Center all pointed to someone who sympathized with the radical elements of Islam.

    He had expressed the view that anyone of a religion not Islam was an infidel and that infidels should be burned.

    His deployment would have placed him in little danger and never required that he be armed unless in self defense and as a last resort.

    He would have been near a population which shared his faith and in a position to help people likely both military and civilian.

    I am a little puzzled about his speaking to an Imam about not being able to find a wife.

    It seem he never did, despite being an Army Major and a Physiatrist.

    I am wondering why he didn’t have gold diggers lined up at the door.


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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Hasan, the sole suspect in the massacre of 13 fellow US soldiers in Texas, attended the controversial Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Great Falls, Virginia, in 2001 at the same time as two of the September 11 terrorists, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt. His mother's funeral was held there in May that year.

    The preacher at the time was Anwar al-Awlaki, an American-born Yemeni scholar who was banned from addressing a meeting in London by video link in August because he is accused of supporting attacks on British troops and backing terrorist organisations.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...errorists.html

    He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.

    Colleagues had expected a discussion on a medical issue but were instead given an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which Hasan appeared to believe.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...roats-cut.html
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 11-09-2009 at 15:38.
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  9. #9
    RIP Tosa, my trolling end now Senior Member Devastatin Dave's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Wow, color me shocked.
    This article must have been written by Zionists.
    Thanks Louis, but this will prove nothing to most in this thread.
    RIP Tosa

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    That changes things

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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    After some calm and reasoned posts, you have fallen prey to your anxieties again. Several of the major school shootings have been committed by people who, after the event, we have wondered aloud why the signs weren't acted upon. Interning all goths, emos and young men who write bad poetry seems to be the answer there.

    In other words, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

    Contrary to your assertion, I think you'll find radical Muslims are reported to the police and authorities far more often these days. Whereas I think there may well be a good reason to look hard at how these reports are dealt with (some I'm sure, are not pursued energetically because of political correctness, particularly in relation to community "leaders" such as imams, but many more are pursued very energetically against innocent persons - at least, this is the European reality) I also think that the sheer volume and often trivial nature of these reports actually overwhelm the security services. Prejudice, not political correctness, is the culprit here.
    It's a very good point that there are always tons of warning signs revealed after the shooting. People just tend to pass those over. The officers who didn't file reports because the were worried about political correctness clearly didn't really believe that he was going to go postal.

    But your last statement I disagree with. People have to be able to report activity without worrying about themselves. If you get a bunch more reports because of prejudice, you need to hire more security people.

    However, given how it was evidently pretty obvious he was a radical muslim, it seems silly to blame political correctness for the whole thing. Unless you want to suggest that the army is a liberal bastion of sensitivity. The fact is, people find it very hard to believe that someone they know would go crazy and start shooting people. It seems he was pretty unlikable, people probably just avoided him for the most part.

    Although political correctness and why people hate it is probably a subject for another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    An interesting perspective aimlesswanderer. Alas you won't get much intelligent engagement from those on this board who have made up their minds that it "all those crazy moooslims" or "don't blame the poor guns".
    It's hard to be intelligently engaged by people who don't exist

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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    However, given how it was evidently pretty obvious he was a radical muslim, it seems silly to blame political correctness for the whole thing. Unless you want to suggest that the army is a liberal bastion of sensitivity.
    The answer to this might shock you. But yes to a certain extent it is. Most especially when the Democrats are in power.

    The top brass is very political and the Secretary of the Army is a civilian.

    Those people make all the rules, remember. And you might be surprised at how much political correctness affects the Armed Forces.


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  13. #13

    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    This guy is spot on:

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/08/for...radarajan.html

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Going Muslim'
    Tunku Varadarajan, 11.09.09, 12:00 AM EST
    America after Fort Hood.

    "Going postal" is a piquant American phrase that describes the phenomenon of violent rage in which a worker--archetypically a postal worker--"snaps" and guns down his colleagues.

    As the enormity of the actions of Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan sinks in, we must ask whether we are confronting a new phenomenon of violent rage, one we might dub--disconcertingly--"Going Muslim." This phrase would describe the turn of events where a seemingly integrated Muslim-American--a friendly donut vendor in New York, say, or an officer in the U.S. Army at Fort Hood--discards his apparent integration into American society and elects to vindicate his religion in an act of messianic violence against his fellow Americans. This would appear to be what happened in the case of Maj. Hasan.

    The difference between "going postal," in the conventional sense, and "going Muslim," in the sense that I suggest, is that there would not necessarily be a psychological "snapping" point in the case of the imminently violent Muslim; instead, there could be a calculated discarding of camouflage--the camouflage of integration--in an act of revelatory catharsis. In spite of suggestions by some who know him that he had a history of "harassment" as a Muslim in the army, Maj. Hasan did not "snap" in the "postal" manner. He gave away his possessions on the morning of his day of murder. He even gave away--to a neighbor--a packet of frozen broccoli that he did not wish to see go to waste, even as he mapped in his mind the laying waste of lives at Fort Hood. His was a meticulous, even punctilious "departure."

    We are a civilized society. One of our cardinal rules of coexistence is that we (try always to) judge people only by their actions and not by their identity, whether racial, religious or sexual. This is our great strength as a society, and also, in the present circumstances, our great weakness: How to address the threat posed by the fact that, of the hundreds of thousands of Muslims in our midst, there are a few (perhaps many more than a few) who are so radicalized that they would kill their fellow Americans? Must we continue to be neutral in handling all people from different groups even though we know that there are differential risks posed by people of one group? The problem here is a heightened version of the airport security problem, where we check all people--including Chinese grandmothers--regardless of risk profiles. But can we afford that on a grand, national scale? (And I mean that question not merely in a financial sense, but also in terms of the price we'd pay in failing to detect a threat in time.)

    This being America, we will insist on going a long way to preserve the appearance of equality, and that is no bad thing in terms of moral principle. But like all values, the appearance of equality is not infinite in its appeal--especially if it flies in the face of common sense and self-preservation. A short time after the shootings at Fort Hood, President Obama asked us not to jump to conclusions. To many Americans, this was a grating request, of a piece with the political correctness that was responsible--it has emerged--for the hands-off treatment by the Army of Maj. Hasan. How else could he have been left in the position of treating U.S. troops, given the stories we've now heard about his incendiary statements and apparent incompetence?

    This is the same mindset that led the FBI to deny the possibility that the Fort Hood massacre was linked to terrorism even before they could have had any idea that was the case. We don't have to be paranoid about Arab males; we just have to avoid the opposite: Being fearful of coming across as Islamophobic, and thereby failing to look straight at a situation.

    This is part of a larger--and too-hot-to-touch--American problem, which is the privileging of religion, and its frequent exemption from rules of normal discourse. Muslims may be more extreme because their religion is founded on bellicose conquest, a contempt for infidels and an obligation for piety that is more extensive than in other schemes. President Obama was as craven as a community college diversity vice-president when he said that no one should jump to conclusions. Everyone did, and he lost credibility with people who cannot stand civic piety in the face of the murderous kind.

    Muslims are the most difficult "incomers" in the ongoing integration challenge, which America has always handled with pride--and a kind of swagger. We're the salad bowl/melting pot. Drive through Queens to see how we do this.

    America differentiates itself on integration from Western European countries, which are far more cringing and guilt-driven in their approach. But can the American swagger persist if many Americans come genuinely to view Muslims as Fifth Columnists? The integration compact depends on a broad trust that the immigrant's desire to be American can happily co-exist with his other forms of racial/cultural/religious identity. Once that trust doesn't exist, America faces a problem in need of urgent resolution.

    Have we reached that point of breakdown in trust? Not yet, I think, and not by some distance; but a few more murderous incidents of the Maj. Hasan variety--a few more shouts of "Allahu Akbar" as Americans are shot dead--will push many Americans on to a dangerous cusp.

    I will end on a practical note. The PC--political correctness--problem is an obvious and thorny issue that the U.S. Army, at least, has to tackle. The Army had a self-identified Islamic fundamentalist in its midst, blogging about suicide bombings and telling everyone he hated the Army's mission; and yet, they did, or could do, nothing about it. In effect, the "don't-jump-to-conclusions" mentality was underway long before this man killed his colleagues.

    So, first, it should be part of the mandatory duty of every member of the armed forces to report any remarks or behavior of fellow service members that could be construed as indicating unfitness for duty for any reason.

    Second, there should be a duty to report such data up the chain of command, regardless of the assessment of the local commander.

    Third, there should be a single high-level Pentagon or army department that follows all such cases in real time, whether the potential ground for alarm is sympathy with white supremacism, radical Islamism, endorsement of suicide bombing or simple mental unfitness.

    Let the first lesson of the Hasan atrocity be this: The U.S. Army has to be a PC-free zone. Our democracy and our way of life depend on it.
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    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    However, given how it was evidently pretty obvious he was a radical muslim, it seems silly to blame political correctness for the whole thing. Unless you want to suggest that the army is a liberal bastion of sensitivity. The fact is, people find it very hard to believe that someone they know would go crazy and start shooting people. It seems he was pretty unlikable, people probably just avoided him for the most part.
    Not silly at all. Senior officers desire to be promoted. Having red flags in one's personnel file on "hot button" issues like cultural diversity bias is perceived, warranted or not, as a sure way to stagnate one's career advancement. So putting yourself on paper in a formal complaint is considered not worth the risk. The warnings were there, multiple warnings, but everyone passed the "hot potato" instead of addressing the potential problem. I'm sure the Army feels that if they listen to all the whiners who don't want to be deployed because of xyz, then there will be no one willing to go. If that is the case, then no matter how they handle it, the mission is doomed to failure.

    An interesting perspective aimlesswanderer. Alas you won't get much intelligent engagement from those on this board who have made up their minds that it "all those crazy moooslims" or "don't blame the poor guns".

    It's hard to be intelligently engaged by people who don't exist
    Unintelligent insults that don't warrant a reply and should be removed.
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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Nope, his religion definitely had nothing to do with it. Nothing.

  16. #16
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    Interning all goths, emos and young men who write bad poetry seems to be the answer there.
    You make this sound like it's a bad thing.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shooting At Ft.Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    A rampage against fellow soldiers speaks of something more malign. I have seen video footage of him doing some shopping hours before the killings and he appeared calm and engaged. Terrorists sure of their cause often appear like this once the plan is in motion - but equally, a psychological trigger can unleash the insanity otherwise repressed.

    It's baffling. And to those who ask why his reasons need to be understood, let me say that the relatives need this information. When you lose a loved one, the worst thing is to be left without knowing why. Even if it turns out that he just went mad, one can move on. "Dunno" and a shrug of the collective shoulder causes years of anxiety as to whether it could have been prevented.
    I think the line between 'terrorist attack' and 'Virginia Tech-like shooting' is very blurred here. An interesting case.





    Also, I want Anwar al-Awlaki, an American citizen, who is the Imam and 'spiritual counceller' of three of the 9-11 attackers and of this Hasan, hung for treason.
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