Preventing joycamptours - a piece of advice for mods

[TosaInu]

I had many a conversation about this with Adrian. We never quite worked it out, but I have a distinct feeling that people from larger countries are somewhat more used to their history being discussed than posters from smaller countries.

I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).

[Husar]

I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).

I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister?

[pevergreen]

If you helped dispose the body, yes.

[Beskar]

I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister?

Actually, if your Dad snapped and killed some one elses Mother, would you have to apologise to their daughter?

Now your question is far more clouded and closer to the situation.

On one-hand, you never did it, so you could try to argue not. However, if you feel your father did something really bad, you could apologise condemning your father for what he did and let the daughter know your whole family isn't a bunch of brutes.

[Cronos Impera]

Without taboos there would not be a single human alive.

General use taboo:
You never ask your parents about their sexual experience.


Taboos are a healthy, civilised thing which keep cheeky weaklings from getting into trouble.It also keeps the structure intact.Wtihout them nations dissolve into individuals who form other nations and so on.

I posted Loius a message on the personal profile to deal with his provocations in the Backroom, where nothingains are popular and the mods more patient with a certain tone and style. All gentlemen, regardless of personal characteristics are invited to view it, have a good time and add it to favorites.

Simple principles which would make WW2 threads redundant

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
All animals are equal and humans are animals.

So far, no WW2 thread has expressed this rules and we all get in a spiral. That would have ended A-worse-than-B, 9 million > 6 million and that kind of pathetic, imature replies. Don't make me dig for dirt.

Instead on focusing on technical parts such as equipment, food habits and such most threads start with "That guy killed a whole village of that people, if you are a member of his tribe you should be ashamed." Than that guy comes with his bodycount and we all end up in a bodycount thread, with grousome execution details.Then we all end up with a horrible nausea and start blaming the other side for throwing the first rock.Then the mods get tired eventually and close the thread.

Does it worth a byte's length to fill the board with this kind of stuff?

Some history is for the family/tribe/nation....use other non-controversial stuff like sarissa-length, military tactics used in the Maccabe uprising, the War of the Roses, and wars in general from a time when factions ware centered around other criteria then today. When mighty dynasties clashed, when the Ptolemaioi and Seleukidiai mobilised the whole middle east.When Afghanistan was Hellenic/Kushan/Persian or when pirates threatened whole nations with their colossal fleets.
Not waste energy on controversial nothingains which turn the Monastery into a semi-respectable Backroom for instant gratification.It doesn't help you develop personal skills or a firm morality.

[Beskar]

General use taboo:
You never ask your parents about their sexual experience.

Your parents usually tell you about the moralities of sex, and sometimes speak from experience. Asking them about sexual experience can be done in a grown up and mature manner. Your parent might admit to mistakes, and using this, help a child learn and possibly not to repeat them.

Such a General-use-Taboo if anything is incorrect, and only goes into unessential prudishness if the original question was actually mature.

I believe you can ask any one who is actually a parent on the .org, if their child comes to that age where you talk about sex, if they would discuss it with their child in an adult manner, I would think the answer would be yes.

Again, you could argue it is about culture. When I was younger, I spoke to my parents in a mature and adult way about sex, there was a bit of a joke to it as well, but yes. These things were discussed, including other things related such as relationships and love. Being able to talk to your children helps them learn and understand, it makes you into a good parent.

Only taboo to it, would be the "wrong time and place" and if you are only being immature about it. Then again, shouldn't the taboo be "don't be immature" opposed to the alternative of banning it altogether?

So in short, opposed to just banning certain things, should you just ban "being immature on the subject" ?

[Cronos Impera]

The greatest difficulty I guess is responding in a mature way to an imature post.
When the guy beside you posts about why his cows are more sacred than yours and shoves you that post in your throat you ban him.

When the incident repeats itself a couple of times you grow tired of a case-to-case aproach and start locking threads (In EB we lock threads when they have a negative potential). The Org is about getting the best out of its members, despite their potential. Its simply not about getting the worse of Orgahs.

[Meneldil]

Instead on focusing on technical parts such as equipment, food habits and such most threads start with "That guy killed a whole village of that people, if you are a member of his tribe you should be ashamed." Than that guy comes with his bodycount and we all end up in a bodycount thread, with grousome execution details.Then we all end up with a horrible nausea and start blaming the other side for throwing the first rock.Then the mods get tired eventually and close the thread.

And what about the thousands of people who don't give a freaking damn about the technical parts of the war but are interested in the social and human aspects? I'm really not interested about who had the best WWII2 tank, who was the best general and who had the best tactic. There's a reason why WWII will be remembered for a long time, and it's certainly not because the T-34 was better than the SOMUA S-2.

This topic is full of bollox. Can't stand the discussion? Don't discuss. When people are too annoying for me, I simply leave a thread, and come back again at a later point if I feel more relaxed about it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I posted Loius a message on the personal profile to deal with his provocations

I've thought long and hard about all of this. I have a thousand different thoughts. Which I am too lazy to repeat here.

I am not going to open a seperate thread. Nothing good will come of it, for a number of reasons.

If you are really interested in discussing modern Romanian history, open some thread and I shall happily oblige.

If your interest however is in trying to ensure that Romanian history is not discussed, then sorry. This is a historical war games forum, so history of wars is a natural discussion topic. And when the subject comes up, I will continue to describe Romania as a fascist Nazi ally that murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews and other minorities of its own accord.

[Cronos Impera]

I've thought long and hard about all of this. I have a thousand different thoughts. Which I am too lazy to repeat here.

I am not going to open a seperate thread. Nothing good will come of it, for a number of reasons.

If you are really interested in discussing modern Romanian history, open some thread and I shall happily oblige.

If your interest however is in trying to ensure that Romanian history is not discussed, then sorry. This is a historical war games forum, so history of wars is a natural discussion topic. And when the subject comes up, I will continue to describe Romania as a fascist Nazi ally that murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews and other minorities of its own accord.

You're the Senior Member. I myself can't start the thread. Its a privilage I'm giving to you as a senior member. Follow my guidelines and we'll have a healthy positive discussion. Ulike yourself, I haven't even deployed my grenadiers. You're still in Fussilier skirmishing mode, Monsieur.

Just like I said: it is you vs. me without anyone else.

Edit: I guess you're refusing the privilage and I have to start the thread myself (I'll post the rules in the first post).

[Beskar]

I know this isn't the most reliable source, but what Louis claimed is also supported by Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...a#World_War_II

Which cites:

International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania (November 11, 2004). "Executive Summary: Historical Findings and Recommendations" (PDF). Final Report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania. Yad Vashem (The Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority). http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_yad/w...VE_SUMMARY.pdf. Retrieved 2006-07-25.

Also at the time, Romania was part of the Axis powers.

What Louis says isn't that inaccurate. Even then, if you have issues with him personally, take it up in PM, the Forum isn't your personal war ground.

[Husar]

On one-hand, you never did it, so you could try to argue not. However, if you feel your father did something really bad, you could apologise condemning your father for what he did and let the daughter know your whole family isn't a bunch of brutes.

The latter can be expressed without apologizing.

[Beskar]

The latter can be expressed without apologizing.

Indeed, though some link the condemnation of what occurred to apologising. There are many people who don't condemn wrongs sometimes, and even try to support the doings of lets say the father in the example, as he stands up in court and pleads 'Not Guilty'.

So it really depends.

[Sevis]

Hmm, seems like I'm late once again. Just to reply to the more interesting spots:

1) you keep objectivity in the Monastery (no more biased content or passionate arguments)

Passionate arguments are good, as long as neither side gets angry or upset - the more effort put into a discussion, the richer it will be. As for biased content - if you can prove it is biased, do so, and disregard it further. If you can't, why are you calling it biased?

2) Orgahs can focus on safer periods (Antiquity, Middle Ages, Early Colonial Age,Pirate Age)

I really don't see this as a benefit. They already have that right - now you're going to force it on them? No thanks.

3) A friendlier enviroment for everyone by a simple taboo (everyone here has had a disturbing experience but seeing poping threads like "OMG, X ware persecuted in 19XX, how nasty ware those Y" is simply too insulting for some members

The problem isn't in the time period. "OMG, X were prosecuted in 18XX, how nasty were those Y" is no better. Both should be locked (imho, or given a shove in the right direction) for lack of objectivity and not stating sources. "Simply too insulting" is missing the point - such discussion is, as far as I can tell, against the rules of the monastery. If "Such book states these people were prosecuted in <year>, let's look at the politics of the time" is too much for you, I'd say the problem isn't in the thread.

4) Allow our grand-grandchildren to delve into the Modern Age History

Quite the opposite. There is a reasonable chance this forum will be archived somewhere - by seeing what was being said about the politics at the time they were happening, they'll get a much better view than from merely reading the texts published in this time.

Taboos are a healthy, civilised thing which keep cheeky weaklings from getting into trouble.

Trouble that is created merely by the existence of the taboo - to use your example, if it would not be considered taboo to talk to your parents about their sexual experiences, nobody would think you strange or rude for doing it.

It also keeps the structure intact.Wtihout them nations dissolve into individuals who form other nations and so on.

So, not abiding to taboos means you start thinking for yourself. Gee, that really is an awful thing to do.

Simple principles which would make WW2 threads redundant

Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.
All animals are equal and humans are animals.

Actually, "If they're not listening, stop talking" and "Making yourself look smart is better than making the opponent look stupid" seem far better principles.

[TosaInu]

I'm certainly not one of them, I noticed in my discussion with Louis I used "we" and "the Germans" interchangeably, I'm a German, but not one of the Germans who did that. If my dad snapped and murdered my mom, would I have to apologize to my sister?

Hello Husar,

True. I tried to say something along the same lines. It some discussions it's exactly where it goes wrong: the Germans are bad, the male members in your family are bad (in this example) and so on.

It's going both ways I think. People hurling generalizations too easily and people reading them were they aren't.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I guess it's how it's discussed and received. Up to this day I hear young German people talking about WW2, almost as if they were responsible for it them self. They aren't, nor their ancestors (most likely being normal people without say).

Hmmm...I think most Germans by now are a bit fed up with WWII. And with perennial moral appeals.

The German education system is excellent. Germans come out very informed and opiniated. Which is praiseworthy. Germany has had an examplary Vergangenheitbewaltigung. (=Dealing with the past). A lot of Germans are apologetic, especially the young and ideologic. And the German state is too.

But, there is also an overwhelming feeling, in Germany an in its neighbours, that WWII was 200 years ago. Ancient history. My grandparents got over it already. As did Husar's. (Once they were released and returned from Siber

One newer aspect, either overdue or perhaps at the right time, is that Germany has become assertive about its past too. Timidly expressing guilt is no longer the sole 'right' way of dealing with recent history. The German state recently has on several occasians said 'no' to requests for WWII compensation. There is an exploration of German suffering too, which is no longer taboo. In literature, the press, movies. (For cinema, see 'Dresden' or 'Die Flugt', for literature: Guenther Grass' 'Der Krebstgang')

[Husar]

But, there is also an overwhelming feeling, in Germany an in its neighbours, that WWII was 200 years ago. Ancient history. My grandparents got over it already. As did Husar's. (Once they were released and returned from Siber

Well, I'm a bit sick of it always having to make me sad and cry, there are enough other reasons that make me sad and want to cry, if it gets too much I'll get depressions so I distance myself a bit from it, might make me look a bit hard at times but I prefer that over being depressed all the time, that doesn't help anyone either.

My grandmother came from eastern Prussia and doesn't like to talk about it, bit of a pity but I can understand and respect that, it was a horrible experience for her, no need to make her depressed either. Her husband died when I was one year old, I have no idea what he did during the war. My dad's family is dutch so they were certainly not in Siberia, most likely just going about their daily lives, his parents died long before I was born.

The typical problem with nation states is that I have to pay for Eastern Germany now after the Russians and Eastern Germans let it rot for 50 years and we even paid them to get it back. And on top of it, Louis told me, I have still to pay for something that an idiot, who wasn't even elected, decided in 1914.
On the other hand I view socialism and collectively helping the weak as something good though(to a certain reasonable extent), hypocrisy?

Now to somehow wind that back to the original topic, why would anyone get annoyed over this? If my grandpa had been a nazi, got shot and someone said it was right that he got shot, I would probably agree, just like I would not support my dad in or after murdering my mom or anyone's mom for that matter. If an old guy dies in prison because he was sentenced to 175 years and served only 25 of it, do you go and get his sons to imprison them for the remaining 150 years? If someone dies with a huge amount of debt do their kids have to pay for it? No? Then why does it work differently with nations and why do people get annoyed when someone calls their grandfather, or the grandfather of someone with the same passport a murderer? I personally find it somewhat irrational, but if you feel that way, as has been said, at least grow the bones to remove yourself from it and don't censor what others can say.

[Beskar]

If someone dies with a huge amount of debt do their kids have to pay for it? No?

I have to admit, I am very glad those days have gone. Unfortunately this used to be the case and as you can imagine, it was very bad.

My opinion towards history is that you accept what happened and move on. Don't get stuck in the pass and don't repeat the worse aspects of the pass.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have to admit, I always wanted to be in a German History lesson. Over in the UK, I did the world wars almost non-stop from the age of 14 to the age of 19. Looking at all sorts of theories and historical ideas, from "Is Hitler simply the product of the German people?" to "Hitler did it all". I always wondered how they ever taught the subject over in Germany, because if it is handled in the wrong way, I could imagine a lot of resentment towards people or even a slight glorification and misinterpretation. Sorry, I am going off-topic here, if you like, I would love to talk about it more with you Husar/EMFM/others. Don't worry, it will be in a mature manner and won't be calling people murderers.

[pevergreen]

I could hate the Japanese for what they did to Darwin. But I don't.


Come here Beefy, I love you!

[Louis VI the Fat]

The typical problem with nation states is that I have to pay for Eastern Germany now after the Russians and Eastern Germans let it rot for 50 years and we even paid them to get it back. And on top of it, Louis told me, I have still to pay for something that an idiot, who wasn't even elected, decided in 1914.

We are all paying, Husar. Such is the tragedy of it all. It was for real, it all actually really happened. War isn't glorious, or a game. It is nasty, brutal, dehumanising.

For a fun fact, since 1918, 650 Frenchmen have died clearing up the explosives from WWI. These are only the professionals on duty, excluding all those farmers and passers-by. We are still clearing it up, we are still paying for it. Large tracts of land are still toxic, a wasteland. This is costly. The generations of crippled, amimed, otherwise unfit for labour owing to war have only just retired, they had to be paid for. We are all paying for the wars, still.

There is no price tag that can be put on the people that grew up orhans, on the lives lost, on the tears of the survivors. On the destroyed art, towns, centres of culture. Whole communities have been wiped out, towns have never been repopulated, to this day.

This, not some adolescent blame game, is the reason for my anger. I hate the denial, the culture of silence. Or the fascination 'but they were really cool, look at those hot uniforms!', where it is never quite clear where fascination ends and outright sympathy begins.




As for Japan - I have some issues with the way Japan treats its modern history. In particular, I have a problem with the portrayal of Japan as a victim of WWII and the 1930's. Japan endlessly explores Hiroshima, makes this the central event in their war experience. The narrative is that several countries had a war over recources in East Asia, which Japan then lost because the Americans were more brutal and committed the atrocity of Hiroshima. Silly Nancy Pelosi bought it hook, line and sinker and came dangerously close to making the US apologize to Japan for WWII.

But Japan has forgiven the world. They will even forgive those female sex slaves they put in rape and torture camps filthy prostitutues, as long as these hysterical women will just shut up.

It is all very disgraceful.

[Husar]

We are all paying, Husar. Such is the tragedy of it all. It was for real, it all actually really happened. War isn't glorious, or a game. It is nasty, brutal, dehumanising.

For a fun fact, since 1918, 650 Frenchmen have died clearing up the explosives from WWI. These are only the professionals on duty, excluding all those farmers and passers-by. We are still clearing it up, we are still paying for it. Large tracts of land are still toxic, a wasteland. This is costly. The generations of crippled, amimed, otherwise unfit for labour owing to war have only just retired, they had to be paid for. We are all paying for the wars, still.

There is no price tag that can be put on the people that grew up orhans, on the lives lost, on the tears of the survivors. On the destroyed art, towns, centres of culture. Whole communities have been wiped out, towns have never been repopulated, to this day.

Yes, that's a good point, still remains that Western Germany quite outdeveloped the East and now we pay to get them up to our standards, while that's generally a good thing, they should have been there anyway.

This, not some adolescent blame game, is the reason for my anger. I hate the denial, the culture of silence. Or the fascination 'but they were really cool, look at those hot uniforms!', where it is never quite clear where fascination ends and outright sympathy begins.

But Kant says you have to differentiate between Louis the Frenchman and Louis the human, in the same way I differentiate between Göring the murderer and Göring the man with a good taste in uniforms*. Not all people may make that distinction but I think it's important to teach them to do that then. A good taste in uniforms should not alter the sentence one gets in a court of law either. But then him being a murderer should also not force me to say he a bad taste in uniforms.
Nice uniforms and tanks are not an excuse for anything, yet they can be very fascinating in their own way.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

*I'm not sure who exactly chose the uniforms, I'm just using Göring here because he is one of the first who comes to mind.