Faction strengths?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, the bigger the battle becomes, and the less room you have for maneuvering, the stronger the Greeks and Romans become, beause they have the most staying power in a classical battle.

Besides, I'd half expect the Lusotannan to lose against Swêboz/Getai (because among mostly unarmoured factions, high lethality/morale beats AP). Unless of course you use Dosidataskeli or other WTF troops. (But then again, for the price of one Dosidataskeli unit you can field three Drapanai ones, which will simply zerg your tanks...)

I'd say Iberians in general and Lusotannan in particular are really good in campaign, but I probably wouldn't dare play them online.

Its more of the fact that in 20/20 fights the Iberian player won't be able to flank effectively because the enemy can just count by matching infantry up 1:1.

[-42-]

Iberians do not fare as well against Barbarian factions as Romanised or Hellenised factions, because of an abundance of AP weapons, and decent spears to keep heavy cavalry out of the way. I've done better with Milites then Haploi. And you can ofen simply tire out the enemy with skirmishes then pounce with fresh Iberians. Granted, this only really works with the AI, people are far more tricky.

[vartan]

Can somebody explain to me the point of the secondary charge? I ask this for the following reason.

When your horse is at a distance, and you alt-right-click in order to get them to trot to the enemy, charge with spears, and when charge is over, to continue in melee with the secondary weapon...since the charge occurs with lowered spears and not axes/maces (the secondary weapons), why does the computer not just use the primary spear charge initially? The secondary weapon is actually NEVER used in a charge...so what's the point of its existence?

I ask again, please, if anybody know, why a secondary charge? What is the reasoning, if any?

[Cute Wolf]

I ask again, please, if anybody know, why a secondary charge? What is the reasoning, if any?

I'm pretty sure that secondary charge things has been discussed in modding forum (scriptorium or mod questions, I forgot) for some times... For example, if your cavalrymen has lance as primary, and mace for secondary, at first he'll use lance for charging, as intended, but when you order with alt r click on to fight with secondary, they'll use the secondary attack stats. And when you withdraw them from melee, but not enough time for them to grab their spears again (read: revert to animated lance graphics, as opposed to animated mace graphics... it need some transition time), and you order them to charge again, they'll show the "charging" note at their unit comments, but they won't use the primary charge value, instead they'll use the secondary.

You'll got secondary charge really working when you play M2TW, since the lance will be unavailable in longer times after switching to secondary, making your horsies must use secondary swords to charge when their lance regeneration time is not enough...

[vartan]

I'm pretty sure that secondary charge things has been discussed in modding forum (scriptorium or mod questions, I forgot) for some times... For example, if your cavalrymen has lance as primary, and mace for secondary, at first he'll use lance for charging, as intended, but when you order with alt r click on to fight with secondary, they'll use the secondary attack stats. And when you withdraw them from melee, but not enough time for them to grab their spears again (read: revert to animated lance graphics, as opposed to animated mace graphics... it need some transition time), and you order them to charge again, they'll show the "charging" note at their unit comments, but they won't use the primary charge value, instead they'll use the secondary.

You'll got secondary charge really working when you play M2TW, since the lance will be unavailable in longer times after switching to secondary, making your horsies must use secondary swords to charge when their lance regeneration time is not enough...

Any explanation why a secondary charge should be used instead of a primary one? The difference may be up to 40 attack points! And funny thing is, both are the exact same thing! They both charge with a spear! It is like saying a chair is both a chair and NOT a chair at the SAME TIME. I do not understand.

[antisocialmunky]

Nope. There is not good reason. Lances have AP and 40ish charge.

[Cute Wolf]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, contrary with their horsie riding comrades, infantry used teh secondary charge exclusively if available....

[Grade_A_Beef]

That explains why my Solduros and Hypaspistai units are so bloody useless......

I'm assuming it's possible to change the big longsword into the secondary rather than the primary in the EDU, right?

[Cute Wolf]

That explains why my Solduros and Hypaspistai units are so bloody useless......

I'm assuming it's possible to change the big longsword into the secondary rather than the primary in the EDU, right?

Nah, better deactivate their spears if you badly want them to become plain swordsmen units, by giving them empty secondary weapon line like this:

before:
;157
type greek infantry hypaspistai
dictionary greek_infantry_hypaspistai ; Hypaspistai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_hypaspistai_massiloi_hoplitai, 30, 0, 1.22
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.2, 1.5, 2.4, 3, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 17, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 14, 11, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -3
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 3250, 813, 60, 90, 3250
ownership macedon, romans_julii, thrace

after:
;157
type greek infantry hypaspistai
dictionary greek_infantry_hypaspistai ; Hypaspistai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Light_1
soldier hellenistic_infantry_hypaspistai_massiloi_hoplitai, 30, 0, 1.22
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy
formation 1.2, 1.5, 2.4, 3, 4, square, shield_wall
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 12, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.225
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 14, 11, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -3, -3
stat_mental 16, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 3250, 813, 60, 90, 3250
ownership macedon, romans_julii, thrace

[anubis88]

my Solduros and Hypaspistai units are so bloody useless......

Ahem... What?!?

[Cute Wolf]

Ahem... What?!?

Well, it looks like he want they to act like bloody infantry killers, not just elite horde-holders (spears kills more slowly than longswords ), but beware, when they lose their spears, they become extremely vulnerable to cavalries, so use them as melee anti infantry unit afterwards....

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hypaspistai = bloody useless? Wow.

[Knight of Heaven]

Hypaspistai = bloody useless? Wow.

lol yes they are far from useless. are great to take walls, and can fare very good against everything, even against AP troops.

[seienchin]

When I made a game, where I fortified myself with a wall made of phalangitai and hoplites the hypaspitai killed more enemies than 2 units of agyraspidai together.
They are anything but useless

[Grade_A_Beef]

Well, no I consider the Solduros near useless because it doesn't take advantage of the longsword's charge, which is almost a trademark move of the Celts.

The Hypaspistai I generally use to attack, not hold the line. Thorakitai and Phalangitai hold the line much more cost-effectively. When it comes to attacking the sword is much better than the spear, and it's exasperating to watch my units switch to spears during a prolonged melee (or even worse during the charge.) I mean, if you have such high lethality long swords, why in the world would you bother to hold the line?

In general the swords first combo is utter pain. As mentioned before they switch to spears when charging and even worse when not moving they stick with their swords rather than go with a much better defensive weapon. It'll hurt to let these type of units absorb a cavalry charge, although considering most units with this weapon combo is at least regular infantry and up......

As I'm in a Seleucid campaign right now, I can choose much better elites than the Hypaspistai, namely the TAB and the Peltastai Makedonikoi. They're better in their roles of line holding and attacking (Peltestai have an added option of flanking utilizing that extra stamina), respectively, and have defense values suitable for their job.

I'd admit Hypastpistai is the better of the three when on walls, but that's awfully specialized. In any case I prefer to stealth capture a gate and have the AI stupidly retreat units off the wall. It leaves my units free to capture the wall with low casualties.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

The Hypaspistai I generally use to attack, not hold the line. Thorakitai and Phalangitai hold the line much more cost-effectively. When it comes to attacking the sword is much better than the spear, and it's exasperating to watch my units switch to spears during a prolonged melee (or even worse during the charge.)

They always charge with spears and that's indeed useful as I was informed long time ago.

I mean, if you have such high lethality long swords, why in the world would you bother to hold the line?

This sentence doesn't make much sense. So if you've got a longsword, you don't hold the line? Holding the line, keeping formation is essential for surviving and subsequently winning the battle, although I admit they would perform much better with spears when holding the line.

As I'm in a Seleucid campaign right now, I can choose much better elites than the Hypaspistai, namely the TAB and the Peltastai Makedonikoi. They're better in their roles of line holding and attacking (Peltestai have an added option of flanking utilizing that extra stamina), respectively, and have defense values suitable for their job.

Peltastai Makedonikoi are much better suited for attacking than for holding the line. Hypaspistai are excellent at holding the line. They are basically excellent in any job that doesn't consist of running around. As are Kuarothoroi etc.

[athanaric]

Hypaspistai are excellent at holding the line. They are basically excellent in any job that doesn't consist of running around. As are Kuarothoroi etc.

While I generally agree with you, I still think that it would have been better to make spears primary and swords secondary weapons for most of these units. The main poblems arise in a defensive position vs cavalry or on walls. It's no big deal with the Germanic bodyguard, because FMs should never fight on walls anyway (tried that with Saba once, and my general promptly jumped off the wall ). But for Solduros etc., it is far more practical and logical to use their swords in a wall fight, instead of spears.

[Grade_A_Beef]

They always charge with spears and that's indeed useful as I was informed long time ago.

And how in the world is that useful when compared to charges with a longsword? Now if I had the option to charge normally with the longsword I wouldn't be complaining as much, but they charge with spears regardless of alt click, which is not as effective against anything but cavalry. That's assuming you can catch them with the slow Hypaspistai/Solduros/Arjos/etc.

This sentence doesn't make much sense. So if you've got a longsword, you don't hold the line? Holding the line, keeping formation is essential for surviving and subsequently winning the battle, although I admit they would perform much better with spears when holding the line.

Well I'm generalizing here, but most people choose to hold the line with spears and attack with swords, due to the defensive advantages of the spear. In that case the Hellenistic factions have spears galore to hold the line with. I personally think I'd be better to take advantage of the longsword's lethality over keeping them on the defensive (defensive as in guard mode on) as another spearmen unit....

Peltastai Makedonikoi are much better suited for attacking than for holding the line. Hypaspistai are excellent at holding the line. They are basically excellent in any job that doesn't consist of running around. As are Kuarothoroi etc.

Again, in that case I'd rather prefer using the TAB over the Hypaspistai. I think it's pretty obvious but they hold the line much better and surpass the Hypaspistai in anything that "doesn't consist of running around" (although with that level of defense they both last forever.)

[Leão magno]

Now if I had the option to charge normally with the longsword I wouldn't be complaining as much, but they charge with spears regardless of alt click, which is not as effective against anything but cavalry. That's assuming you can catch them with the slow Hypaspistai/Solduros/Arjos/etc.




Well I'm generalizing here, but most people choose to hold the line with spears and attack with swords, due to the defensive advantages of the spear. In that case the Hellenistic factions have spears galore to hold the line with. I personally think I'd be better to take advantage of the longsword's lethality over keeping them on the defensive (defensive as in guard mode on) as another spearmen unit....

I never played with those two units, but if you give the alt+doubleclick won't they charge with the secondary weon? In case the long swords?

[Cute Wolf]

I never played with those two units, but if you give the alt+doubleclick won't they charge with the secondary weon? In case the long swords?

If secobdary weapons are available, infanteries always charge with their secondary, regardless of clicks...

Oh yeah, and I must admit that you are not alone Grade_A_Beef, most of us also think how to made the spear and swords switchable, but that was hardcoded points on RTW... so basically if you don't mod them for using only swords, you should use them as a kind of elite hoplitai, and they are more than statisfication... spears kills slower, yes... but they kills in good, steady rate, and not as vulnerable against cavalry charges (which EB has truly deadly cavalry charge... even the stupid ai can damage your swordsmen considerably if you let them charged frontally), not to mention they has superrior range as well.... BTW, if you want to play longswords, best try to get Tindanotae or Gaesatae... they are the ultimate swordsmen anyone can get in EB...

[Apázlinemjó]

BTW, if you want to play longswords, best try to get Tindanotae or Gaesatae... they are the ultimate swordsmen anyone can get in EB...

I concur, those units are the top among the swordsmen in the game. The funny is that they are quite effetive against cavalry too and don't take that much casualties from a rear charge either (probably because of the 2 hp). Their only real weakness is that they are nude, thus vulnerable to missiles.

[Cute Wolf]

I concur, those units are the top among the swordsmen in the game. The funny is that they are quite effetive against cavalry too and don't take that much casualties from a rear charge either (probably because of the 2 hp). Their only real weakness is that they are nude, thus vulnerable to missiles.

Agreed, everytime I play with either Aedui or Avernii, I tend to build my primary campaigning army in the middle to late game campaign almost entirely with them, just spare some Remi Mairepos, Iasotae, and my Brihentin Bodyguards, as well as some Nietos to absorb the missile if face the pesky Mistophoroi Toxotai Kretikoi (I call them wonderful if I used them)...

They are the main Strength of the Gauls, and in Fact, my entire campaign depends on them most of the way...

[Grade_A_Beef]

Yeah, Gaesatae are the best! When it came to elites in my Aedui campaign it was all Gaesatae and occasionally the Carnutes Cingetos. I rarely recruit a lot of elites however, but it's all good. Also, I've only recently noticed but the Gauls have no javelin based skirmisher infantry ....not that it matters as the bulk of their units throw javelins before charging.

On the other note the weapon choice of the Persian hoplites should be the ideal for Hypaspistai and Solduros units.....spear as a primary and longsword as a secondary. I was utterly surprised that Persian Hoplites would carry longswords (which for some reason have short sword lethality)....now if only they had higher morale.

At the very least they can hold with their spears when in a neutral position and charge with their swords when engaging.

[Cute Wolf]

Hey what persian hoplites did you refer? Shipri Thukul carry maces, not swords... And Kardaka Arthensar's sword are certainly the thin one (yes, they are long, but compare with Gaesatae / Milhant longswords and they are thin longswords, lack in power)

...
If you refer to the Nayakarakhan Tiknapah... they allready got longswords lethality...

[vartan]

Hey what persian hoplites did you refer? Shipri Thukul carry maces, not swords... And Kardaka Arthensar's sword are certainly the thin one (yes, they are long, but compare with Gaesatae / Milhant longswords and they are thin longswords, lack in power)

...
If you refer to the Nayakarakhan Tiknapah... they allready got longswords lethality...

Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites) are a great holding line as well as flanker due to their swords (shortswords).

Aznvakan Tiknapah (Armenian Noble Infantry) are an ELITE unit, and come in small numbers. All of this aside though, they have great ability to push enemy heavy cavalry back with their spears, while devastating enemy infantry with their longswords.

NOTE: Both the Kardaka Arteshtar as well as the Aznvakan Tiknapah have spear as primary weapon and sword as secondary (which IMO is a great decision on the part of the EB Team; I can't imagine the units in any other way, shape, or form).

[Grade_A_Beef]

I was talking about the ones Pahlava gets, which I understand seem to be the generic Persian Hoplites with those short sword lethalities.

It gets awfully boring killing fullstacks with only horse archers and cataphracts, and throwing in an incredibly weak line helps spices up things quite a bit, especially since it is subject to crumbling instantly versus a heavy cavalry charge. Makes it even more fun and challenging because the East is absolutely saturated with Heavy Cav.....and the occasional elephant!

[vartan]

I was talking about the ones Pahlava gets, which I understand seem to be the generic Persian Hoplites with those short sword lethalities.

It gets awfully boring killing fullstacks with only horse archers and cataphracts, and throwing in an incredibly weak line helps spices up things quite a bit, especially since it is subject to crumbling instantly versus a heavy cavalry charge. Makes it even more fun and challenging because the East is absolutely saturated with Heavy Cav.....and the occasional elephant!

Heavy cavalry and the occasional elephant? Now I know why they call you GRADE A BEEF!

But yeah, what do you expect with Pahlava? Weak line! Are you picturing a line full of hoplites?

[satalexton]

Persian hoplites are fair enough. Not as tough as real hoplites, but they have a pointy sword for scrums.

[Grade_A_Beef]

But yeah, what do you expect with Pahlava? Weak line! Are you picturing a line full of hoplites?

Na, I wasn't picturing that at all. I just expected a breath of fresh air. I'm sure others have pointed it out, but fighting in the nomad style gets repetitive way faster than other styles...

[gamegeek2]

Saba, as Cute Wolf said, has a good starting position, but again, their roster is weak. Most Sabaean and Arabian troops wear little to no armor, so they will die like flies under missile fire. Even the Sabaean Noble Infantry, some of the heaviest armored troops they can muster, have less armor than Hellenic Theurophoroi, which are considered fairly light by Hellenic standards. The strength of many Sabaean and Arabian troops is that they have surprisingly high morale. Arabian Light Infantry will hold in melee versus superior foes for quite some time before routing, which is not what you would expect by looking at them. Sabaean Levy Spearmen have 13 morale (!) which is surprisingly high considering their levy status. But this is where the strengths end. Saba lacks cavalry, decently armored units in general (other than their bodyguard), and has trouble holding a line. When fighting against the Ptolies and Seleucids, you're going to have to resort to Pantodapoi Phalangitai more and more the further you get from home, which I hate doing when I'm not a Hellenic faction.

AtB will change that. The Arabians will no longer suck.

You have in particular the Nabatu to look forward to, who get a nice assortment of Hellenistic units in addition to a much-improved Arabian roster.

Here's a sneak peek:



Nabataean Hetairoi