Train bombed in Russia

[Sarmatian]

@Sarmatian




I love you too Sarmatian.

But really it is like a never ending ritual also when coming from officials.

How was that, oh yes terrorist attack in Ingushetia were organised by the USA, the UK and Israel according to its current president.

I am not saying they are not entitled to some little scaremongering, everyone loves that.

Still...for the love of God they could abandon some most obvious cliches. It is like more grotesque repetition of Khruschov era propaganda.

It is the 21st century so they could at least find someone or something else...

Don't worry mate. Despite our arguments and our disagreements, I like you and respect you. I look forward to boring everybody else when it happens again. And, let's face it, Poland deserves a better representative than Krook on the .Org... So, even though my post probably didn't sound like it, I'm glad you're back. So, officially, welcome back

On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.

That's the beauty of (semi)free press...

[cegorach]

Don't worry mate. Despite our arguments and our disagreements, I like you and respect you. I look forward to boring everybody else when it happens again. And, let's face it, Poland deserves a better representative than Krook on the .Org... So, even though my post probably didn't sound like it, I'm glad you're back. So, officially, welcome back

Krook... alone... Need to digest the information...

On topic, I bet there's a newspaper in Russia that blames aliens for the attack, one that blames dwarves and two that insist it was a wrath of God.

That's the beauty of (semi)free press...

Of course, but I was more concerned about the tedious repetion of the same nonsense.

I am not really concerned that someone blamed Poland for something in Russia - that is expectable and happens on regulr basis from the time of Ivan the Terrible, just like threatening us with rockets (every year since 1993) - a part of neighbourhood and a local custom.
It is rather more disturbing that foreigners were/are/will be blamed and the truth about the attacks once again, most likely ( I wish I could say probably, but in this case I am pessimistic) will remain unknown.
It is Nord-Ost attack again and again and the corruption in the security agencies becomes worse while conflict in the Caucasus spreads to new regions.


I hope that things are getting worse only to get better, but as I said above I am much more pessimistic than 18 months ago.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am not really concerned that someone blamed Poland for something in Russia

Nothing to be concerned about indeed. I learned the Kremlin blames the Elysee too.

a newspaper in Russia blames dwarves

[HoreTore]

Some thoughts about this attack....

1. Does "Russian authorities suspect group x" actually mean anything at all? Remember the train bombing in Spain and who was blamed for it first? When the president of a large and respected EU member can lie his arse off when it comes to this, how can we honestly trust Putin and his corrupt gang? Does it mean anything at all when they blame it on the Chechens? Having the Chechens responsible is gold for Putin, as it would justify another round of terror and oppression in that region...

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

3. That aid was slow and inefficient is no surprise in Russia. It would've been a mystery if it actually worked like it should. People are so afraid of the consequences should they do screw up that they are too afraid to do anything at all.

[Sarmatian]

There's no shortage of suspects, that's for sure, but I think it's extremists/separatists.

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I don't personally believe Putin would do such a thing any more than I believe 9-11 was organized by Bush, but for the sake of argument... Many people may think that Putin is nothing but a power-hungry nationalistic dictator but everyone would agree that he is not an idiot.

Will we know the truth? Will this be blamed on foreigners? Possibly, but I'd like to remind people of the Kursk story. The most advanced Russian submarine sank after a loud bang and American submarine was seen speeding away to nato waters immediately after that, followed by Russian planes who had to turn away when they reached foreign airspace. Submarine was put in a drydock and Russian officials were denied permission to inspect the outer hull of the submarine. It couldn't have been a military secret issue as that type of submarine was photographed many times and photographs were published in popular magazines.

It all looks like a perfect setup to blame it on the foreigners, but what did Putin do? He ordered an investigation that involved raising the hull of the submarine out of the water and assigned it bigger budget than entire Russian navy had got. The evidence they've got didn't point on a crash with another submarine, or didn't point conclusively enough and the government didn't pursue it.

I'm not saying this can't be misused for propaganda (as Cegorach said, corruption is quite rampant in Russia, especially in the police), but some people really need to learn to turn on their brains before going "ZOMG, evil Russians/Putin"...

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Part of the popularity of Putin and Medvedev is based on their law-and-order image. On their being tough against terrorists.

This attack is a major dent in their reputation. It shows that Putin can't even protect his own, his own elite travelling between Petersburg and Moscow.

[Centurion1]

are there alot of neo-nazis in russia?

[HoreTore]

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It would only happen if he has lost control over them, and that they are now angry with him. Also, they're attacking minorities in Russia every day, but why should that stop them from expanding their business? I can easily see them do both.

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

not trying to tickle your funny bone there, Sarmatian....

[cegorach]

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe.

Hey, hey stop right there, I am from Eastern Europe and it is far from it. If anything the extreme right only rose in some countries or perhaps just became more noisy and easier to spot.

Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

Hungary is... a special case (Trianon Treaty still leaves some scars). Rise of the Jobbik is worrying, but exceptional when it comes to the whole region.

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

What an enlightened lecture it is... Wonderful.

I could explain all the little details to contradict this statement, but I would just say - it can be used to deal only with some countries, because only in some countries any or some of those reasons apply.

The far right is NOT on the rise, except in some countries - certainly in Hungary, but not in Poland (it pretty much doesn't exist as meaningful political force i.e. it wouldn't score above 2 % of votes in put together), it is weaker in Romania than earlier etc.

It is definetelly dangerous in Russia, disturbingly vocal in Ukraine and unusually strong in Hungary, but your description doesn't fit.


Of course there is strong prejudice against the Roma in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Czech Republic, of course there are anti-semites here and there, of course there are problems with immigrants wherever they appear (there were some problems with Chechens in Poland, but nothing serious), of course Turks are blamed in Bulgaria and Albanians in Serbia, but the only sizable problem inside the EU is in Hungary and with the treatment of the Roman in the four mentioned states.

Jobbik might be borderline anti-semitic, but Hungary is far, far behind France and other countries in Western Europe despite large Jewish community.

When it comes to this Russian Federation is on another planet - sadly I might add.

I would be more worried about certain western european states voting for extremists and blaming much of their worries on immigrants.

[Viking]

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks.

Uhm, that's not true. What is true is that a lot of the organized crime these days is committed by Eastern Europeans entering the country with criminal intent.

[Furunculus]

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

I wouldn't say that was true of Poland.

I wouldn't say that is how Brits consider the Polish either.

[cegorach]

Hell, I will answer this one too...

Some thoughts about this attack....

1. Does "Russian authorities suspect group x" actually mean anything at all? Remember the train bombing in Spain and who was blamed for it first? When the president of a large and respected EU member can lie his arse off when it comes to this, how can we honestly trust Putin and his corrupt gang? Does it mean anything at all when they blame it on the Chechens? Having the Chechens responsible is gold for Putin, as it would justify another round of terror and oppression in that region...

They've just took the responsibility for the attack.

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

Neo-nazis - not really. Xenophobes do, but to the neonazis he is too soft.

Russian governement clearly tolerates and supports some xenophobic ideas and movements, but that is still not too close to neonazism.

3. That aid was slow and inefficient is no surprise in Russia. It would've been a mystery if it actually worked like it should. People are so afraid of the consequences should they do screw up that they are too afraid to do anything at all.

Nope, it simply is this way. Sadly despite frequent disasters not much has changed, in some cases nothing except the size of the bribes.

When it comes to the help in case of a disaster it is especially disturbing that the people do not believe the state will help them. There is a meaningful difference in public perception between the the case of Kursk submarine years ago (popular opinion was that the authorities attempted to help, but had no people and no equipment) and the water power plant disaster a couple months ago ( popular opinion was that the authorities decided to do nothing to avoid unpleasant questions from surviving witnesses).

The whole system is corrupt, inefficient and close to breaking down and everybody knows that, but the fact it was the same with the train used by the Russian elite only reveals that in more shocking proportions.
If anything the ordinary Russian pupulation did expect that the rich and the powerful will be better protected, so I guess did the terrorists and the fact it wasn't leaves the Kremlin more humilated than it was expected.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's Count Doku!!

A North Caucasus Islamist group has claimed responsibility for a bomb that killed 26 people on a Moscow-to-St Petersburg train, a website says.

The website claim on Kavkazcenter.com said last Friday's attack was carried out by the "Caucasian Mujahadeen" on the orders of its leader, Doku Umarov.

It's 2009. Terrorists have websites too. Here is the website of what the other three quarters of the world reads:
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/...02/11221.shtml

I am so going to join their forum and troll 'em a bit.

[Sarmatian]

It's Count Doku!!






It's 2009. Terrorists have websites too. Here is the website of what the other three quarters of the world reads:
http://kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/...02/11221.shtml

I am so going to join their forum and troll 'em a bit.

I'm not so sure about these terrorist forums. When you break the rules to they blow you up or ban you?