Train bombed in Russia

[Sarmatian]

There's no shortage of suspects, that's for sure, but I think it's extremists/separatists.

2. The Neo-Nazi's are part of Putin's powerbase. His party's youth organization is extremely xenophobic and openly sympathetic to the gangs who beat up minorities. Will he risk alienating his own supporters even if they are responsible for this? I don't see that happening.... Also, if right-wingers are behind this, does that mean Putin is losing his grip on the organizations he has nurtured? Have his actions backfired on him?

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose. I don't personally believe Putin would do such a thing any more than I believe 9-11 was organized by Bush, but for the sake of argument... Many people may think that Putin is nothing but a power-hungry nationalistic dictator but everyone would agree that he is not an idiot.

Will we know the truth? Will this be blamed on foreigners? Possibly, but I'd like to remind people of the Kursk story. The most advanced Russian submarine sank after a loud bang and American submarine was seen speeding away to nato waters immediately after that, followed by Russian planes who had to turn away when they reached foreign airspace. Submarine was put in a drydock and Russian officials were denied permission to inspect the outer hull of the submarine. It couldn't have been a military secret issue as that type of submarine was photographed many times and photographs were published in popular magazines.

It all looks like a perfect setup to blame it on the foreigners, but what did Putin do? He ordered an investigation that involved raising the hull of the submarine out of the water and assigned it bigger budget than entire Russian navy had got. The evidence they've got didn't point on a crash with another submarine, or didn't point conclusively enough and the government didn't pursue it.

I'm not saying this can't be misused for propaganda (as Cegorach said, corruption is quite rampant in Russia, especially in the police), but some people really need to learn to turn on their brains before going "ZOMG, evil Russians/Putin"...

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's also equally silly saying that Putin or someone close to him organized it to gain support. That would be extremely stupid thing to do. That's what dictators do when they're losing their grip, not when their support is sky-high. He'd have nothing to gain and everything to lose.

Part of the popularity of Putin and Medvedev is based on their law-and-order image. On their being tough against terrorists.

This attack is a major dent in their reputation. It shows that Putin can't even protect his own, his own elite travelling between Petersburg and Moscow.

[Centurion1]

are there alot of neo-nazis in russia?

[HoreTore]

This doesn't make sense really. If they are a part of his power base, if he and his associates have been nurturing them, why would they attack them? They would target minorities, human rights organizations, that sort of thing

It would only happen if he has lost control over them, and that they are now angry with him. Also, they're attacking minorities in Russia every day, but why should that stop them from expanding their business? I can easily see them do both.

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

not trying to tickle your funny bone there, Sarmatian....

[cegorach]

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe.

Hey, hey stop right there, I am from Eastern Europe and it is far from it. If anything the extreme right only rose in some countries or perhaps just became more noisy and easier to spot.

Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

Hungary is... a special case (Trianon Treaty still leaves some scars). Rise of the Jobbik is worrying, but exceptional when it comes to the whole region.

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

What an enlightened lecture it is... Wonderful.

I could explain all the little details to contradict this statement, but I would just say - it can be used to deal only with some countries, because only in some countries any or some of those reasons apply.

The far right is NOT on the rise, except in some countries - certainly in Hungary, but not in Poland (it pretty much doesn't exist as meaningful political force i.e. it wouldn't score above 2 % of votes in put together), it is weaker in Romania than earlier etc.

It is definetelly dangerous in Russia, disturbingly vocal in Ukraine and unusually strong in Hungary, but your description doesn't fit.


Of course there is strong prejudice against the Roma in Hungary, Romania, Slovakia and Czech Republic, of course there are anti-semites here and there, of course there are problems with immigrants wherever they appear (there were some problems with Chechens in Poland, but nothing serious), of course Turks are blamed in Bulgaria and Albanians in Serbia, but the only sizable problem inside the EU is in Hungary and with the treatment of the Roman in the four mentioned states.

Jobbik might be borderline anti-semitic, but Hungary is far, far behind France and other countries in Western Europe despite large Jewish community.

When it comes to this Russian Federation is on another planet - sadly I might add.

I would be more worried about certain western european states voting for extremists and blaming much of their worries on immigrants.

[Viking]

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks.

Uhm, that's not true. What is true is that a lot of the organized crime these days is committed by Eastern Europeans entering the country with criminal intent.

[HoreTore]

Uhm, that's not true. What is true is that a lot of the organized crime these days is committed by Eastern Europeans entering the country with criminal intent.

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

The far right is NOT on the rise, except in some countries - certainly in Hungary, but not in Poland (it pretty much doesn't exist as meaningful political force i.e. it wouldn't score above 2 % of votes in put together)

I have no problem with putting your twin president and his cronies in the "loony nationalist"-bin. And he was elected, was he not? Poland is also engaged in some very petty bickering with Germany over WW2(oh noes they're making a museum!!!1!11). Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

Fact is; fascism is on the rise all over europe, eastern europe is no exception to that. Italy, Hungary and Russia are the worst.

[Viking]

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

Neither is fully true. You bet most would become pretty uncertain if they were to draw a line on a map of Europe to define the west and the east; and if they heard a name, they would have troubles locating it. Those who are sure about what they mean probably think most foreigners are thieves and crooks, anyway.

Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

It appears that what you mentioned above applies to you to some degree, if to no one else..

[Devastatin Dave]

I hope no prayer rugs got burnt in this attack. i really hate seeing that.

[cegorach]

I've ignored that before, but right now I am not in the mood.

What isn't true? That the eastern europeans are all crooks and thieves, or that we westerners regard them all as thieves and crooks?

The first one is false, the second is sadly true.

I guess that might be true for you. Let's not generalise.

I have no problem with putting your twin president and his cronies in the "loony nationalist"-bin.

So ?

And he was elected, was he not?

And his popularity ratings are around 20 %... Go figure.

Many people are leceted in specific conditions and for wrong reasons and the voters have to suffer such mistakes like this.

Of course I am certain that in your country that never happened. I am sure of that.

Poland is also engaged in some very petty bickering with Germany over WW2(oh noes they're making a museum!!!1!11).

You clearly know nothing about it. Currently it is German problem - as you could notice (if you cared to read something). That is a problem with certain lady who is making a political issue and is opposed by EVERY single German party except Bavarian CSU and a part of christian democrats.

In Poland her presence is opposed from the beginning, not the idea of such a museum.
I don't like her as well and feel inclined to agree with people such as one Wladyslaw Bartoszewski.

But who is he ? Just another loonatic uncomparable with certain HoreTore from the Internet !

Just see his biography - Polish politician (so loonatic), social activist (probably meaningless), journalist (wrote a few texts for sure), writer (we know who are those writers anway), historian (anybody can claim that), Auschwitz concentration camp inmate (people exaggerate, it wasn't so bad as they say), soldier of Armia Krajowa (of what ?), Polish underground activist (so hid doing nothing), participant of the Warsaw Uprising (in what ?), twice the Minister of Foreign Affairs (by mistake), chevalier of the Order of the White Eagle (and what is that ?), honorary citizen of Israel (they are giving that to anybody) and other rubbish, awarded by some loosers from Germany, Austria, Israel, Poland, Britain etc.

Until Poland decides to just get over it, I'm placing the entire country in the loony bin.

Untill you revoke your statements I am doing the same to you.

I believe that is a bit more rational although the damage surely irreparable.

Fact is; fascism is on the rise all over europe, eastern europe is no exception to that. Italy, Hungary and Russia are the worst.

So you've changed your opinion then, in some part at least ? Nice to see that, but I am afraid you would have to tell that to our fascists.
I doubt that they will buy it, though.

Never won anything in any elections and never appeared in any political rankings.

They might be glad that still some foreigner observes their 'rise'.

I guess it is possible, after all if 100 people supported you among 10 000 000 and now 125 do - it is indeed a dramatic, 25 % rise !

Fear their wrath ! Bow before their anger !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNUW...eature=related

Mr.Kononowicz is the most successful candidate from the fascist and quasi-fascist parties in Poland EVER. 1.9% in local elections in Bialystok.


Forgive me, but for a while I will ignore this danger. I know that is foolish and it is certain that candidates such as Mr.Kononowicz will dominate our political scene, soon, very soon.

[cegorach]

Anyway, I guess the topic is pretty much closed.

We will learn nothing useful in close future about the attack.

[HoreTore]

Closed?

Now that I once again have managed to rile up nationalistic feelings? What a shame....

Neither is fully true. You bet most would become pretty uncertain if they were to draw a line on a map of Europe to define the west and the east; and if they heard a name, they would have troubles locating it. Those who are sure about what they mean probably think most foreigners are thieves and crooks, anyway.

Try reading the reader comments on the debate section of VG.

[Furunculus]

@Centurion: Neo-nazi's, fascists and extreme nationalists are on the rise throughout eastern europe. Heck, in Hungary they even have their own little uniform and are allowed and encouraged to patrol the streets(meaning: beat up random romani). A side effect of the USSR crushing national identity, I guess... They weren't allowed to be bigots before, so now they're making up for lost time...

It would've been funny if it wasn't so shameful; here in western europe, all eastern euros are considered criminals, thiefs and crooks. In eastern europe, they pick one step down the ladder, which is immigrants coming further east(like the caucasus) and their own minorities, like the Romani, or even groups originally from a neighboring country but due to wars and shifting borders find themselves living in another country. Like Serbs harassing Albanians, for example...

I wouldn't say that was true of Poland.

I wouldn't say that is how Brits consider the Polish either.

[rvg]

It's the Chechens....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8390258.stm

[rory_20_uk]

I wouldn't say that was true of Poland.

I wouldn't say that is how Brits consider the Polish either.

I don't really think of Eastern Europeans in general and Poles in particular as anything but extremely industrious and people who very quickly assimilate in a positive way into society. I only wish we could send a load of English people back.

I have read articles that state Albanians run criminal gangs - but then there are many native gangs, so I hardly think that this is true of all Albanians.