MoH winner to be sued for Flagpole

[Louis VI the Fat]

Some Black family wanted to move into my block. My homeowner association voted against it to protect our real estate value.

[Subotan]

I detest real estate in general. Speculators, landlords, most estate agents, and all the other types who buy houses as an "investment" artificially inflate the price of land, and deny first time buyers; i.e. everyone under 30 from being able to own their own house. Why should Bob own three houses when he only lives in one, just because he happens to have been alive when a property bubble started?

[Prussian to the Iron]

That's totally subjective. I live in a townhouse community, where the front yard of each house is no more than about 10' x 10'. A 20' flagpole would look horrendous there. The same 20' flagpole would look perfectly fine in front of a large house set back a good ways from the street. You can't just say that flagpoles always look fine, because they don't... or at least most people won't think they do. Obviously the HOA in this case doesn't think that one looks good, or they wouldn't have ruled against it specifically for aesthetic reasons.


A few dollars? We're talking about real estate prices here. A 'small' change in a house price is measured in the thousands of dollars. A quick google search shows that the house prices in that guys' community are in the $200k to $250k range. So, if that flag pole made prospective buyers dislike the community enough to drop their offer by half of one percent, that's still a drop of $1,000. That's not "a few dollars."

well, in the area the guy lives in the houses appear to be somewhat large, and a flag pole wouldnt reduce prices.

[Samurai Waki]

I could hardly see how THAT could reduce the price of surrounding property, if the pole was 40 feet tall, and the flag was 50ftx36ft; then it would be a problem. That's small, and the flag is hardly an eyesore (the houses themselves don't seem to be overly spectacular anyways) if I was that guy I'd walk over to the HOA and Stick my 90 year old hardass military boot so far up each one of their rectal cavities, they'd be singing The Star Spangled Banner.

[Subotan]

I can play The Star Spangled Banner on bass. It's quite cool.

[Centurion1]

Maybe to make a point, he should set up lots of little flag poles, with the Iranian Flag, North Korean Flag, USSR Flag etc, just out of badness

this man doesn't put up the flags of those whom he has defeated in combat.

he stomps on them and laughs.



yeah this is outrageous and i now hate homeowners associations even more but i can't claim they are doing anything illegal technically.

[A Very Super Market]

Are the homeowners associations finicky? Yes. Is this man entitled to special treatment because of his history? No.

[miotas]

Did you just blatantly rip this from the Minaret thread?

Of course he didn't. He couldn't keep up, remember?

Eh, trying to find a picture of the street it does look like one of those "picturesque" neighborhoods. I find the whole thing goofy, but they are within their rights to removed the flagpole.

All those dead trees everywhere must be terrible for property value, why do they care about one little pole?

[Centurion1]

^ its winter

[Azathoth]

It's ok Centurion, he's just Australian.

[pevergreen]

It's ok Centurion, he's just Australian.

I resent that.

[Azathoth]

It's ok Pevergreen, I'm just American.

[naut]

Couldn't they make a communal space in the community (in a park or whatever) and erect the flag-pole there and put him in charge of that?

Then, he would get to fly the flag, do his thing, no rules would be broken, all standards kept. Problem solved.

Nah, taking a 90 y.o. vet to court is so much more fun.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nah, taking a 90 y.o. vet to court is so much more fun.

Yes, I have the same feeling. Why make the life of that man miserable over some flag. Whatever makes him happy, eh. Whatever gives him a sense of daily purpose, of having a story for his life. He's an old man.

I have the same feeling I get when I read about stripping 87 year olds in retirement homes of their cigarettes. Even if you are right about it, and it is is forbidden, why push it? Leave em their little pleasure.

[spmetla]

While I think it's in poor taste for the HOA to have denied his request he should still abide by it. As much as I respect the guy he can't just do his own thing. In all honesty, with a flagpole not being against the rules of the HOA he really should have just put the thing up without asking. By having asked, he opened up the opportunity to be denied his request, despite how stupid their response was in light of his exemplary service.

However, taking him to court over it is asinine.

[Whacker]

A few things.

First, HOA's are not completely evil in all situations. Mine has actually done some good, and as far as I know isn't run by a bunch of facists. We've had a situation where someone near the entrance to our neighborhood was letting his yard go, AND decided to rip off a chunk of his fence in order to do some real heavy yard work. At one point, his kid's damn swing set was parked OUTSIDE his fence on the side lawn directly next to the street for no less than 2 weeks. People eventually had enough, and the HOA started to put some serious pressure on him. It started out nicely enough, with the Pres. (who is a nice enough guy) talking to him one on one about it, etc. He used the excuse he's a pilot in the military and often flies long hours. OK, that we could buy. Problem is he was home a LOT more than what he made it out to be, AND he was given PLENTY of time to deal with this. Push came to shove and I think the served him. The mess was cleaned up within a few days. We've also had people put their satellite TV dishes on the front areas of their houses, and it looks utterly tacky and tasteless. Thankfully one of our restrictions is against that, so those get taken down pretty fast.

So, they aren't totally evil in all instances.

Next, I find it precious and amusing that quite a few of the people arguing in this thread about how dumb and meaningless this is are friggin' teenagers. Let's get something straight kids. When you grow up and are big boys (and girls) with your own jobs, and you actually own a damn house, come on back. We'll talk about mortgages, property values, upkeep and maintenance, easements, worrying about neighbors doing stupid crap with their property (and yours), and all that fun stuff that adults do. Until then, stay in school.

Lastly, @ Kukri. DO IT.

[Lemur]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will. Sounds entirely too obtrusive to this lemur. If I have a neighbor who hasn't mowed/raked/shoveled in a couple of weeks, a little good-natured ribbing will do the trick with far less fuss than a contract.

Besides which, I enjoy people being odd and doing their own thing. The dude across the street who bought a used Bobcat and uses it to landscape his hideous yard? Why the heck not? The old lady who never shovels her walk? (We all shovel it for her, depending on who gets out there first.) The 'naturalists" who have a jungle for a yard? More power to 'em.

But then again, I view my home as a place to live first and foremost. The investment aspect never really interested me.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Push came to shove and I think the served him. The mess was cleaned up within a few days. We've also had people put their satellite TV dishes on the front areas of their houses, and it looks utterly tacky and tasteless. Thankfully one of our restrictions is against that, so those get taken down pretty fast.

Sounds like you're just as anal as the guys asking the vet to take out his flagpost

Some people just need to chill out. Do I get upset about scratches and dents in my car? No, it's not an important part of my life.

The HOA request is still ridiculous, it's just counteracted by the fact that the guy wanted to live in that neighborhood.

[Samurai Waki]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will.

Precisely. I can handle living in the boondocks, just so that I can avoid having to deal with people telling me how my property should look. Not that it looks bad, but I dislike Crackerjack neighborhoods to begin with, and there isn't any set building codes, so I can butt the corners on my deck any way I want to.

[Whacker]

Sounds like you're just as anal as the guys asking the vet to take out his flagpost

Some people just need to chill out. Do I get upset about scratches and dents in my car? No, it's not an important part of my life.

The HOA request is still ridiculous, it's just counteracted by the fact that the guy wanted to live in that neighborhood.

When your neighbors end up doing crap that can and does affect your property value, you will not be pleased over it. All the same reasons I care about dings in my truck. I like it, and want to keep it looking nice as long as I can. Eventually when I get tired of it, the better shape it's in translates directly into trade-in value. If you don't, then I guess I can somewhat admire your "screw it" attitude, but I would turn that right around and tell you that indifference is ridiculous. The dude I mainly talked about who let his property go was actually making some real safety hazards for the local kids, and it was becoming a real eyesore. So much of one that I think even you would agree. The sat dishes are subjective, but I guess I could see some folks not caring as much.

Property value = selling the house = moving my family into a bigger house eventually = more space for us, the eventual kids, dogs, and friends + family visiting. Rinse and repeat.

[Ronin]

I've never lived in a neighborhood that had a HOA, and I expect I never will. Sounds entirely too obtrusive to this lemur. If I have a neighbor who hasn't mowed/raked/shoveled in a couple of weeks, a little good-natured ribbing will do the trick with far less fuss than a contract.

So a HOA is too obtrusive but you will mess with your neighbors until they do stuff the way you want it?

what´s the difference then?

if the guy down the street doesn´t want to mow is lawn...or even have a lawn...what business is that of anyone else?

I admit I don´t get American's obsessions with flagpoles....maybe compensating for something? :P...but if the old man down the street wants to have a flagpole let him have it...it should be is right....just like it would be my right to think he is a coot for wanting it.

[miotas]

I don't see how having row after row of identical houses and lawns makes for an appealing neighbourhood, it sounds pretty boring to me. In my neighbourhood, there are all kinds of differently designed houses, each with their own uniquely designed gardens and various houses have things like flagpoles, statues, boats, cars, water features and more out the front, there is even a two-storey house that really sticks out and is completely different from anything else around.

This world where everyone is identical sounds kind of creepy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Besides which, I enjoy people being odd and doing their own thing. The dude across the street who bought a used Bobcat and uses it to landscape his hideous yard? Why the heck not? The old lady who never shovels her walk? (We all shovel it for her, depending on who gets out there first.) The 'naturalists" who have a jungle for a yard? More power to 'em.

Aye, that's why I enjoy cities. All your daily dose of live 'human interest'.



- The pettiness of private regulation will trump public regulation. Or, the difference between the US and Europe part 462312. This case would be one of public regulation in Europe, not of private regulation and property rights.

(Public regulation means a better democratic control, some democratic mitigation. It is more wasteful, more time-consuming, and has more powers for abuse.
Trying to get a government permit in France for building a 30 centimeter extention to your shack out in the back is enough to make one understand just why Eastern Europe had revolted against meddlesome governments in 1989.)

- Could the flag hoister not claim freedom of expression in this case?

- One's home is one's castle. While I am usually not overly impressed with private property rights, a home must enjoy a special status. 'Unaesthetical' is not sufficient reason for intrusion on a person's right to live the way he pleases.

[Lemur]

So a HOA is too obtrusive but you will mess with your neighbors until they do stuff the way you want it?

what´s the difference then?

Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I sympathize with the veteran. I've known a few of the "old guys" -- funny how that's in quotes now that I'm closer to 50 than 40 -- who maintained such a flag-raising tradition. I found it quaint. If the flagpole in the front yard did look a little "off" compared to the milieu of the entire neighborhood, it never jarred me enough to bother me.


HOAs are THE norm in the US today. More and more, states and counties are requiring that new construction, especially subdivisions and regardless of road maintenance issues, MUST be organized into HOAs and not sold as freeholds. This is a powerful tool of government, since they can then pass the oversight of the county right of ways at the edge of each property where it borders the road to the HOA while retaining ownership of the right of way for any county purpose. Neighbors take over the "policing" of the neighborhoods and there's fewer things for the county to have to send its people out to take care of.


If the HOA's grounds/architectural review/oversight committee wishes to be a bunch of jerks, you will find that you have relatively few rights over your property (check your contract carefully, once signed it's caveat emptor!), and that almost none of these extend outside the walls of your abode.

Unfortunately for Kukri, that will include his new paint scheme.

[Whacker]

Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

This. It's not just contract law either, it's health and safety regulations.

@ Louis. Generally in the US you will have what is generally "health and safety" public building codes. These are in place to prevent real danger to others by neglecting one's property or housing. For example, you cannot let your grass get too high because pests and critters might take up living in your own personal jungle. You must take care of your trash and not leave it around the yard, for the same reasons. Building codes help prevent fire hazards, and ensure that structures are safe and livable. Auto safety codes can apply to vehicles on one's property as well, depending on what's happening.

The next layer is going to be HOA and community contracts. As mentioned several times, HOAs can and do often devolve into a handful of jerks. The best thing one can do is vote them the hell out, or run for the board. If you don't like it, fix it yourself. Find some like minded neighbors and fix the problem. Or move. Many options available.

The last piece is going to be social norms. Let's face it. If you keep your house looking nasty, or paint it horrible colors, or generally have it in a state that's not aesthetically pleasing BUT still within legal limits, you are generally going to become "that neighbor" and your social situation will suffer accordingly. Need help with something while you are away on vacation? Not going to happen. Want someone near to keep an eye on your house so it's not broken in to, or if it is it's cause quickly? Not going to happen. The social consequences can range from passive (as previous examples) to people actively making your life hell so you'll move the hell out. Some people don't give a hoot what their neighbors think, and go about their own business without a care in the world. I submit those types are arrogant and selfish fools. I like my neighbors, they like me, and that's how I want to keep it. I treat them the same way I want to be in return, and I do my best to keep my property and house looking nice so it keeps all of our property values up, and we all win in the end.

[KukriKhan]

Sgt (later 2Lt) Barfoot's MoH Citation (from here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty on 23 May 1944, near Carano, Italy. With his platoon heavily engaged during an assault against forces well entrenched on commanding ground, 2d Lt. Barfoot (then Tech. Sgt.) moved off alone upon the enemy left flank. He crawled to the proximity of 1 machinegun nest and made a direct hit on it with a hand grenade, killing 2 and wounding 3 Germans. He continued along the German defense line to another machinegun emplacement, and with his tommygun killed 2 and captured 3 soldiers. Members of another enemy machinegun crew then abandoned their position and gave themselves up to Sgt. Barfoot. Leaving the prisoners for his support squad to pick up, he proceeded to mop up positions in the immediate area, capturing more prisoners and bringing his total count to 17. Later that day, after he had reorganized his men and consolidated the newly captured ground, the enemy launched a fierce armored counterattack directly at his platoon positions. Securing a bazooka, Sgt. Barfoot took up an exposed position directly in front of 3 advancing Mark VI tanks. From a distance of 75 yards his first shot destroyed the track of the leading tank, effectively disabling it, while the other 2 changed direction toward the flank. As the crew of the disabled tank dismounted, Sgt. Barfoot killed 3 of them with his tommygun. He continued onward into enemy terrain and destroyed a recently abandoned German fieldpiece with a demolition charge placed in the breech. While returning to his platoon position, Sgt. Barfoot, though greatly fatigued by his Herculean efforts, assisted 2 of his seriously wounded men 1,700 yards to a position of safety. Sgt. Barfoot's extraordinary heroism, demonstration of magnificent valor, and aggressive determination in the face of pointblank fire are a perpetual inspiration to his fellow soldiers.

This guy's actions and service ENABLED and guaranteed the freedom of a group like his HOA to be as wrong-headed as they wanna be without some fascist goose-stepper telling them different at bayonet-point. They should be more respectful.

[Ronin]

Indeed, what is the difference between minimal standards maintained through contract law versus minimal standards maintained through social norms? Do tell the class.

you obtrusive Lemur you!

[Strike For The South]

Some Black family wanted to move into my block. My homeowner association voted against it to protect our real estate value.

Did they try and put up minnarets?

[Subotan]

Next, I find it precious and amusing that quite a few of the people arguing in this thread about how dumb and meaningless this is are friggin' teenagers. Let's get something straight kids. When you grow up and are big boys (and girls) with your own jobs, and you actually own a damn house, come on back. We'll talk about mortgages, property values, upkeep and maintenance, easements, worrying about neighbors doing stupid crap with their property (and yours), and all that fun stuff that adults do. Until then, stay in school.

I have just had an epiphany. Suddenly it has become clear to me that to have any opinion about something that won't affect me at this precise point in time is "dumb and meaningless". I guess I'll have to throw out my "dumb and meaningless" opinions about retirement homes, politics, careers as well then, since none of then will affect me until I have left full time education.