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Thread: Civil Servants

  1. #31
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    she was.
    She was one of the worst. Only good thing she probably did was organise the rebate from the EU.

    Shutting down all the coal mines, including the profitable ones - Bad Idea.
    Stripping Britain of all her assets to fund a mismanaged economy - Really Really Bad Idea.
    Poll tax - Really Bad Idea.
    and it continues.

    EDIT: That's another thing - high ranking civil servants usually have political/administrative power as well.
    I dislike the quango's as well, unfortunately, the right won't let us change the system.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-09-2009 at 18:04.
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  2. #32
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    In general, every country the costs and quality of civil servants it deserves.

    For example, tax payers too shortsighted to pay for the public services they request? Simple, decrease wages for civil servants, and increase their pensions. This means the true costs of employment are for future generations.
    This is why in many countries wages in the public sector are lower, and pensions are higher, than in the private sector.


    ~~-~~-~~-<<oOo>>-~~-~~-~~


    As to the UK in particular.
    I think the public sector is much too small. Privatisation in the past two decades has ruined services. Trains, electricity, waste management - upon privatization, costs increased and service decreased.
    http://www.tni.org/article/privatisation-failures-uk



    The UK currently employs 25% less civil servants than it did under Thatcher.

    There are also less CS's now than there were when Labour took over form the Cons in 1997.

    This despite the means to cut employment by the Conservatives having consisted mainly of privatization. (Or, of selling off the crown jewels). Whereas Labour incorporated HMCS into the crown - which added a whopping 17% extra CS's, but still managed to decrease the total number of CS's through increased efficiency.

    http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about...ics/index.aspx#

    Cursed Labour and their expansive government.
    your objections are somewhat misplaced, in that it is the size of the public sector that is objected to, rather than the civil service itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    She was one of the worst. Only good thing she probably did was organise the rebate from the EU.

    Shutting down all the coal mines, including the profitable ones - Bad Idea.
    Stripping Britain of all her assets to fund a mismanaged economy - Really Really Bad Idea.
    Poll tax - Really Bad Idea.
    and it continues.
    that is a matter of opinion and perspective.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-09-2009 at 18:21.
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  3. #33
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I dislike the quango's as well, unfortunately, the right won't let us change the system.
    No, the right won't let you uproot the system and replace it with a socialist paradise. We are quite open to reform.

  4. #34
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    No, the right won't let you uproot the system and replace it with a socialist paradise. We are quite open to reform.
    I didn't know democracy was so against your interests.
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  5. #35
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I didn't know democracy was so against your interests.
    Daniel Hannan.

    An effective rebuttal in two words.

  6. #36
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Daniel Hannan.

    An effective rebuttal in two words.
    The guy who preaches in an empty room? I never heard him say anything about Quango's or anything related so the rebuttal as effective as me referencing Malaysian poetry.
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  7. #37
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    The guy who preaches in an empty room? I never heard him say anything about Quango's or anything related so the rebuttal as effective as me referencing Malaysian poetry.
    Do you even read his column? No, the right isn't opposed to democracy, it is opposed to socialism. We, you see, do not view socialist democracy as a good thing. We prefer free democracy.

  8. #38
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Do you even read his column? No, the right isn't opposed to democracy, it is opposed to socialism. We, you see, do not view socialist democracy as a good thing. We prefer free democracy.
    Though "free" democracy is incorrect term to use and no, I don't read his column, this is why I said saying his name was as effective as referencing Malayasian poetry.

    As for your free statement, I will quote this -
    Libertarian socialism is a group of political philosophies that aspire to create a society without political, economic, or social hierarchies, i.e. a society in which all violent or coercive institutions would be dissolved, and in their place every person would have free, equal access to the tools of information and production.
    If your idea of free is infact allowing entities which exploit people and control the means of information and production away from the people. Then is it really free? Or should it be labelled at least "Free to be Exploited" democracy ?
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  9. #39
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    If your idea of free is infact allowing entities which exploit people and control the means of information and production away from the people. Then is it really free? Or should it be labelled at least "Free to be Exploited" democracy ?


    Socialists are amusing.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-09-2009 at 20:22.

  10. #40
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post


    Socialists are amusing.
    Says the democratic monarchist.

    Can tell you are a big hit with the rights of man and equality there.
    Last edited by Beskar; 12-09-2009 at 20:32.
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  11. #41
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Can tell you are a big hit with the rights of man and equality there.
    Considerably.

  12. #42
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars View Post
    Considerably.
    Yes. Everyone is born equal. Except that guy. And that guy. And those people over there... And that guys aunt and sister is the same person, so obviously he's royalty, bow before him!!

    Who needs wisdom or intelligence when you have birth rights?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  13. #43
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Yes. Everyone is born equal. Except that guy. And that guy. And those people over there... And that guys aunt and sister is the same person, so obviously he's royalty, bow before him!!

    Who needs wisdom or intelligence when you have birth rights?
    Abolish inheritance! Eliminate private enterprise! Allow children to vote! Rule the supreme worker's state, where all wealth is shared equally from birth to death!*

    Everybody is born equal, but not everybody is born into an equal position under this system, my ideal systems, or under any other system that actually stands a chance of working. I believe that the two should not be confused.

    *In other words, where nobody actually has anything at all.

    EDIT: Of course, now we are moving rather off topic.
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 12-10-2009 at 00:19.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Post Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    She was one of the worst. Only good thing she probably did was organise the rebate from the EU.

    Shutting down all the coal mines, including the profitable ones - Bad Idea.
    Stripping Britain of all her assets to fund a mismanaged economy - Really Really Bad Idea.
    Poll tax - Really Bad Idea.
    and it continues.

    I dislike the quango's as well, unfortunately, the right won't let us change the system.
    To rephrase, was Thatcher better than the Labour government she replaced?
    They ruined the manufacturing sector along with the unions with a collapse of quality and productivity
    3 day week
    First developed nation going to the IMF cap in hand

    Did the following leaders fair any better? Tony and Brown have managed to increase the Public Sector by the most ever - and on a completely related note we're still in recession and have a massive structural deficit.

    Change is easiest in times of adversity as eventually most realise things can't continue. Fingers crossed Quangos will be reduced. But they are so useful in times on Media hype - "it's all sorted, we've got the Commission to Narrowly Supervise Today's Cock-Up so move along..."

    Yesterday I had to attend a course on Child Protection - as do ALL NHS employees. Per week 2 children die due to abuse (on average). Over the last decade we've been deluged with reports, plans, action points and reforms to reduce this. "Oddly", the reports and plans have coincided with episodes of media frenzy...

    It's increased over the last 5 years.

    Not only was this not mentioned at the teaching, but the fact that unless all parents are supervised 24/7 there will always be some deaths because of this.

    It's the appearance of doing something - the proceedure rather than the outcome that is important. That boxes are ticked, events are highlighted, the right agencies are informed etc. In the Private / Charitable sector it is outcomes that are important. Within reason, the how is far less important.

    Oh, and no training / time is spent on young men who commit suicide every week. On average there's 80/week. But then I can't remember the last news story that focused on this stat.
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Overpaid? Speaking as a civil servant, almost all of us are paid less than people doing equivalent jobs in the commercial sector. Yes, the benefits are very good, but I consider that a fair trade-off for the lower pay.
    The average federal employee pay is about twice what the average American makes. So I don't think you're underpaid. In my small hometown one city position is paid $100k - and doesn't require a college degree. I don't think public employees should be able to unionize either; they have no real opposition to keep costs low based on profitability. They also strive to support the worst employees.

    Also, yes, there is the prodecure that has to be followed, you can't just stick cases into the shredder like private companies which can just wash their hands from it, you need to follow it by the book and the letter because the public demand it, also to eliminate and minimise risk from America's sue culture.
    Um, you really don't know what you're talking about, do you? The public certainly does not demand it - if anything it's the opposite. From Tincow:

    First, the laws governing what we can do and how we can do it are extraordinarily complex and specific. Common sense often takes a back seat to proper procedure, but that's not our fault, it's the fault of Congress and the Executive Branch. We have to operate in the ways we are told to operate, and no individual can simply choose to violate protocol even when we know it's absurd.
    CR
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  17. #47
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by CR
    The public certainly does not demand it - if anything it's the opposite.
    The public at large demands their government to resolve issues quickly, cheaply, with a 'single stroke of the pen', and not wastefully involving four civil servants going over the same case.

    The private citizen individually demands his government to meticulously go over his every point of contention. Taking into account every single rule, his personal story how he is the exception to the rule, and countless appeals.
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  18. #48

    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Taken from the PUS's own speech:

    Sir Bill said that over the last 12 years, partly as a result of the efficiency programme, the number of MOD civilians has fallen from 133,290 to 86,200, a reduction of more than 45,000

    And now they are talking about, and in fact doing, further cuts. As I said before I am all for efficiency but you can only cut manpower so far before you can't do the job anymore. Privatising the civil service jobs doesn't work because guess which companies consistently get those types of contracts? Yep, the suppliers, so you end up with contractors assigning themselves work and contrary to what MP's tell you it is never cheaper, it only moves money from one budget to another, ask the NAO.

    As for wages I earn £35k a year and for that I run a £50m project that directly supports front line troops with one other member of staff, the contractors who are bidding on my project earn double what I do.

    Some people also argue we are lazy and not committed to the job, I have almost 30 hours of flexi built up, and cannot claim for overtime or travelling time, even though I took 2 days flexi leave last month and worked during both those days. My other half also works for the MOD and loses flexi hours every month because she cant afford to take the time off. Another project in my team is currently working at 60% understaff and still attempting to stick to timescales.

    But that is all about the MOD, I agree some civil servants get paid too much and I don't agree with any civil servant being paid more than the prime minister but believing everything you hear in the media about what we do and get paid is a bit unfair.

    I still believe that just cutting funds and people are the wrong way to go, read the Haddon-Cave report and you see what happens when you arbitrarily impose cuts without proper thought, what we should be doing is identifying projects that are not essential and scrapping them and stopping inefficient contracts that are already placed. Maybe the upcoming strategic defence review will do this.

  19. #49
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    The average federal employee pay is about twice what the average American makes. So I don't think you're underpaid. In my small hometown one city position is paid $100k - and doesn't require a college degree. I don't think public employees should be able to unionize either; they have no real opposition to keep costs low based on profitability. They also strive to support the worst employees.
    Yes, the average federal employee is paid more than the average American. I do not claim otherwise. What I'm talking about is an equivalent position in the commercial sector. Most federal jobs are white-collar deskjobs which on average have a higher level of pay than the average non-federal job. It's inappropriate to compare a federal salary to that of a waiter or retail job, because the federal government does not employ people in those positions. That's like saying that doctors are overpaid because they make more than the average American. The proper comparison is with equivalent jobs in the commercial sector, not with the entire commercial sector.


  20. #50
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    Yes, the average federal employee is paid more than the average American. I do not claim otherwise. What I'm talking about is an equivalent position in the commercial sector. Most federal jobs are white-collar deskjobs which on average have a higher level of pay than the average non-federal job. It's inappropriate to compare a federal salary to that of a waiter or retail job, because the federal government does not employ people in those positions. That's like saying that doctors are overpaid because they make more than the average American. The proper comparison is with equivalent jobs in the commercial sector, not with the entire commercial sector.
    Maybe CR is a secret communist who plays everyone should be paid the average wage?

    But yes, as TinCow said, you need to compare the some one of a similar position and job.
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    The number of federal workers earning six-figure salaries has exploded during the recession, according to a USA TODAY analysis of federal salary data.

    Federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months — and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted.

    Federal workers are enjoying an extraordinary boom time — in pay and hiring — during a recession that has cost 7.3 million jobs in the private sector.

    The highest-paid federal employees are doing best of all on salary increases. Defense Department civilian employees earning $150,000 or more increased from 1,868 in December 2007 to 10,100 in June 2009, the most recent figure available.

    When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.


    The trend to six-figure salaries is occurring throughout the federal government, in agencies big and small, high-tech and low-tech. The primary cause: substantial pay raises and new salary rules.


    That **** is crazy.

    CR
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  22. #52
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Looks startling, but it doesn't look quite right. Why did they say 170,000 plus and not the same 150,000 as before? It could be things like inflation, which could have tipped the balance to over the mark.

    Though, you have to remember, a Doctor makes $300,000 or even more in wages.
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  23. #53
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by CR's unattributed citation
    The number of federal workers earning six-figure salaries has exploded during the recession, according to a USA TODAY analysis of federal salary data.

    Federal employees making salaries of $100,000 or more jumped from 14% to 19% of civil servants during the recession's first 18 months — and that's before overtime pay and bonuses are counted.

    Federal workers are enjoying an extraordinary boom time — in pay and hiring — during a recession that has cost 7.3 million jobs in the private sector.

    The highest-paid federal employees are doing best of all on salary increases. Defense Department civilian employees earning $150,000 or more increased from 1,868 in December 2007 to 10,100 in June 2009, the most recent figure available.

    When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000.

    The trend to six-figure salaries is occurring throughout the federal government, in agencies big and small, high-tech and low-tech. The primary cause: substantial pay raises and new salary rules.
    Apparently I'm doing something wrong, or failing to do something right, with my $56K salary after 21 years. I knew I shudda gone DOT instead of USPS. Stupid me
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    Apparently I'm doing something wrong, or failing to do something right, with my $56K salary after 21 years. I knew I shudda gone DOT instead of USPS. Stupid me
    Whoops:
    http://www.usatoday.com/printedition...terstitialskip

    Also, I tend to think of postal workers/firemen/library staff as a much better value than the bureaucrats in DC or state capitols.

    Though, you have to remember, a Doctor makes $300,000 or even more in wages.


    Doctors go to years of schooling that costs hundreds of thousands, and put in long years of study and work. There's no comparison.

    Why did they say 170,000 plus and not the same 150,000 as before? It could be things like inflation, which could have tipped the balance to over the mark.
    Different departments.

    CR
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  25. #55
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Though, you have to remember, a Doctor makes $300,000 or even more in wages.
    It is also an awful lot harder to become a doctor.

  26. #56
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Not to forget doctors are usually held to a high standard as they're often directly responsible for a person's (quality of) life. More responsibility, stress etc.


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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Not to forget doctors are usually held to a high standard as they're often directly responsible for a person's (quality of) life. More responsibility, stress etc.
    They don't make the "thick slice of the pie" that they used to, so we're seeing fewer of our "best and brightest" pursuing medicine. Probably the biggest single restriction there is the decrease in net income by the physician resulting from higher costs (mostly mal-practice insurance).

    By contrast, we have a steadily increasing number of personal injury and social security lawyers.
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  28. #58
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Doctors go to years of schooling that costs hundreds of thousands, and put in long years of study and work. There's no comparison.
    How about those football players getting $50,000 per week? All they do is kick a ball around. Why aren't you angry about those wages?
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  29. #59
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    How about those football players getting $50,000 per week? All they do is kick a ball around. Why aren't you angry about those wages?
    I guess cuz his taxes aren't paying them.
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  30. #60
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Civil Servants

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Doctors go to years of schooling that costs hundreds of thousands, and put in long years of study and work.
    But that would pretty much sum up federal employees. Federal employees are much more educated than the national average. And they are employed mostly at the managerial and professional level.

    http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm

    The Fed Gov't is also more efficient than private industry: they make do with less office and administrative support.


    To say that Fed employees earn twice the national average is as relevant as saying that in a hospital, mnagement rewards its own employees better than those it hires as outsourced workers, when the first are mostly medical staff and the latter an outside cleaning agency.
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