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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Yes, I think I agree with HoreTore, even if the reasoning the judge used was suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    What is so hard to understand about certain unlawful actions leading to the forfeit of certain rights?

    After all; being held against your will is against a person's rights, but we still throw criminals in jail.
    Why do we through people in jail? Isn't it to keep them from committing crimes and and as a deterrent? I don't believe taking away the voting rights is a deterrent.

    We don't take all rights away, so you still have to give a reason why the right to vote should be taken away.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Yes, I think I agree with HoreTore, even if the reasoning the judge used was suspect.
    Yes, the reasoning was bollox(to put it like tribesey), but hey, means to an end, eh? Would've loved to have a judge say that prisoners are a part of our society, even though they are temporarily paying for the mistakes they have made in their life, but I'll take this anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Why do we through people in jail? Isn't it to keep them from committing crimes and and as a deterrent? I don't believe taking away the voting rights is a deterrent.

    We don't take all rights away, so you still have to give a reason why the right to vote should be taken away.
    Indeed.

    Btw; only treason, attempted coup(the Nazi's) and election fraud will lose you voting rights here, and only for a maximum of 10 years.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 01-07-2010 at 20:50.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    I find it amusing that the opening post believes all the prisoners will vote Democrat.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    The majority do. That's been independently verified several times. Try Google.


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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    The majority do. That's been independently verified several times. Try Google.
    Then it's proven that criminals don't vote for their own kind, isn't it?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Then it's proven that criminals don't vote for their own kind, isn't it?
    Democrats = open criminals

    Republicans = closet criminals...pun intended.



    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Democrats = open criminals

    Republicans = closet criminals...pun intended.

    Oh right, I forget. Democrats are the criminals, republicans are the sexual deviants.

    Forgive me, american politics are easy to get mixed up
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Well I think if you rob someone at gunpoint or assault someone you lose your right to determine how the nation is governed until you pay your debt to society.
    What creeps me out is the states where you lose your voting rights permanently. In theory, a teen arrested for grand larceny will never vote again, even if he lives to be eighty. That's just messed up. Once you've paid your debt, you've paid your debt.

    Two questions: (1) prisoners are often moved from other counties and/or states for incarceration. What counts as their residence? (2) How big of a prison population are we talking about? Would it make a measurable difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I find it amusing that the opening post believes all the prisoners will vote Democrat.
    All criminals are Democrats, and all Democrats are criminals. However, not all criminal Democrats are gay; some are terrorists instead.

  9. #9
    The Rhetorician Member Skullheadhq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    All criminals are Democrats, and all Democrats are criminals. However, not all criminal Democrats are gay; some are terrorists instead.
    I love those convincing arguments you use to support your cause
    And really, why care that they can vote, there not a huge amount of the population and thus wouldt make much of a change, and the prisoners get happy, so I cat see why it is wrong, and at least, when there voting, there not doing crime for a few minutes :)
    Last edited by Skullheadhq; 01-07-2010 at 21:02.
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    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Skullheadhq View Post
    there not a huge amount of the population and thus wouldt make much of a change
    "In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults."

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=11

    3.2 percent is actually pretty large, considering the margins of victory since 2000.


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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    "In 2008, over 7.3 million people were on probation, in jail or prison, or on parole at yearend — 3.2% of all U.S. adult residents or 1 in every 31 adults."

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=11

    3.2 percent is actually pretty large, considering the margins of victory since 2000.
    All the more reason for letting them vote, I say.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Like it or not, even a prisoner has valid views on how to run a country.
    Actually, no, they don't. That's why they are in prison -- not so much as a deterrent, but because they are considered maladjusted individuals. The problem here is not so much what rights these people should have, but rather who should be considered maladjusted individuals. However, this is not relevant to the above problem, because it asks questions much larger than the concern posted, and for now I would suggest we focus on the problem with the understanding that we are working with a problematic system that is nevertheless the best we have, so for the purposes of this problem we need to work within its system, and deal with the bigger issues later. Otherwise we won't get a damn thing done.

    The short and skinny of all this is, prisoners are supposed to be maladjusted individuals whom society has said must pay their debts to said society until they can be permitted to participate in society again; therefore, they are unfit to participate in society, part of which involves making group decisions, as in the case of voting. Therefore, they should not be allowed to vote. The problems of reform and who should be imprisoned are unrelated to this because, if the system works and only people who are unfit to participate in society until such time as they have paid their debts, then the problem becomes moot and there is no reason to question whether or not they should be returned certain rights.

    I wish I had taken a logic class in college.
    Last edited by Reverend Joe; 01-07-2010 at 21:36.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Joe View Post
    our system of justice is based entirely on results and not on motivation. Therefore, we cannot distinguish between robbing because you need to eat and robbing because you want that which you did not earn, because the result is the same:
    Um, not really. If this were the case we would not have any distinction between murder 1 and manslaughter. There would be no insanity plea. "Mitigating circumstances" would not exist.

    Our system of justice takes motivation into account pretty much every time. Whether or not is has a bearing on the sentence is a matter for the judge and jury. We put human judgment as a buffer between the accused and the law every step of the way, because the law is a blunt instrument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    The majority [of criminals vote Democrat]. That's been independently verified several times. Try Google.
    Intrigued, I consulted with the Java Googles, and found that this is largely based on the Florida 2000 election, where several thousand felons attempted to vote (I believe this is another case of lifelong loss of voting privileges for convicts, which I have already said is questionable). 68% of those caught voted for Gore, 32% voted for Bush, which was pretty much in-line with what would be expected from the demographics (heavily minority and low-income). So the moral of the story is that convicts appear to vote exactly the way you would expect them to, based on their demographic and economic status. The fact that they're criminals does not have a measurable impact. Who knew?

    -edit-

    Note that the reason I'm referring to the Florida 2000 election is that by our system, votes are secret. There is no mechanism for releasing who voted how, and such a release would actually be, you know, illegal. So plenty of people are pushing "estimates" and "analysis" and other good guesses, but the FL2K election is one of the only cases where an actual count was made and released.
    Last edited by Lemur; 01-07-2010 at 21:44.

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    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Um, not really. If this were the case we would not have any distinction between murder 1 and manslaughter. There would be no insanity plea. "Mitigating circumstances" would not exist.

    Our system of justice takes motivation into account pretty much every time. Whether or not is has a bearing on the sentence is a matter for the judge and jury. We put human judgment as a buffer between the accused and the law every step of the way, because the law is a blunt instrument.
    Forgot all about that. But nevertheless, this is still part of the larger but irrelevant (to this topic, anyway) problem.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend Joe View Post
    Actually, no, they don't. That's why they are in prison -- not so much as a deterrent, but because they are considered maladjusted individuals. The problem here is not so much what rights these people should have, but rather who should be considered maladjusted individuals. However, this is not relevant to the above problem, because it asks questions much larger than the concern posted, and for now I would suggest we focus on the problem with the understanding that we are working with a problematic system that is nevertheless the best we have, so for the purposes of this problem we need to work within its system, and deal with the bigger issues later. Otherwise we won't get a damn thing done.

    The short and skinny of all this is, prisoners are supposed to be maladjusted individuals whom society has said must pay their debts to said society until they can be permitted to participate in society again; therefore, they are unfit to participate in society, part of which involves making group decisions, as in the case of voting. Therefore, they should not be allowed to vote. The problems of reform and who should be imprisoned are unrelated to this because, if the system works and only people who are unfit to participate in society until such time as they have paid their debts, then the problem becomes moot and there is no reason to question whether or not they should be returned certain rights.

    I wish I had taken a logic class in college.
    They aren't deem unfit to participate in all of society. They are allowed visitors, phone calls, social interaction with other inmates. These are parts of society. And unless they have a life sentence they will be released into society again, implying that they haven't been deemed unfit to participate in society, but rather are being punished. For example, if you get too many speeding tickets, they will take your license away for a year. But you can still vote on issues regarding traffic laws, yes?

    So one must still have a particular reason for including voting in the list of things that they are not allowed to do. One would say that they don't have the right to bear arms because they have been shown to be violent or there is a good chance they would try and kill the guards and escape. That reason was easy to come up with. So what's the particular reason for not allowing them to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking
    I am afraid that CR is correct. It is a cynical move to promote one political party over another.
    By the judges?

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    By the judges?
    It's the 9th District, so anything is possible.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Don't a lot of democracies spend a lot of time and money complaining about low turnout?

    Punishment is meant to have four aspects: protection (of the public), deterrence, retribution and rehabilitation. Denying prisoners the vote has no impact whatsoever on the first two, is a pretty petty way of enforcing the third. However, granting them the vote may have some positive effects for rehabilitation. Making prisoners feel like they're members of society can only have positive effects when they are released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    What creeps me out is the states where you lose your voting rights permanently. In theory, a teen arrested for grand larceny will never vote again, even if he lives to be eighty. That's just messed up. Once you've paid your debt, you've paid your debt.
    IIRC 1/3 of all black men in Florida cannot vote.

  18. #18
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Democratic Party Boosted in WA; Jailed Felons can Vote

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    They aren't deem unfit to participate in all of society. They are allowed visitors, phone calls, social interaction with other inmates. These are parts of society.
    I would argue that visitors, phone calls and letters are not necessarily participating in society, but rather allowing them to maintain contact with the outside world. Social interaction with other inmates doesn't constitute participating in society because they are only interacting with other people who are isolated from society, and only in a strictly controlled environment where they cannot abuse this right. We give them these allowances because of the need for human interaction, which is much more fundamental than interacting with society; it's more like the need for food, water and shelter. I would also note that the rights to interaction are actually considered privileges as well -- look at solitary confinement and supermax prisons. These exist because we feel that there are people so maladjusted that they should not even be allowed to interact with other people, for fear of causing further damage.
    And unless they have a life sentence they will be released into society again, implying that they haven't been deemed unfit to participate in society, but rather are being punished. For example, if you get too many speeding tickets, they will take your license away for a year. But you can still vote on issues regarding traffic laws, yes?
    Losing your license indicates that you are unfit to drive, not participate in society. It's a bit less rigorous than doing something that is deemed worthy of isolation. And if you will reread my post (granted, it's not all that clear -- it went through a couple of rewrites) I'm not saying that they are unfit to participate is society permanently, unless, as you mentioned, they have a life sentence. They are only isolated so long as they are paying their debt to society via prison time, after which they are considered to be normal citizens again. Think of it like overdrawing your debit card -- you can't make any more purchases with the card until you repay your debt to the bank, after which you regain the use of your card. I agree that prison is punishment, but it is punishment under particular and extreme circumstances, and for the specific purpose of repenting for maladjustment.

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