Netherworld II [Concluded]

[Sasaki Kojiro]

1) Do you know of a dead pro-town role to use it on? If not, what's even the point of him proving it if it's just exchanging one dead townie for another?

Because he is a potential pro town role and we have other pro town roles who might potentially die.

2) I do not believe GH was a mafioso, it was just a typical erroneous early game lynch.

You can at least admit to being fallible...now which killer do you believe me to be? Either the naga or the corpse killer? I want you to be specific, so that either the mafia prove me innocent or have to make sacrifices not too.


TinCow, you have to admit that your case on Chaotix is simply bad. There are 5 points you laid out.

1) & 2) can be disproven easily, if given a chance.

3) is guilt by association

4) is a coincidence that you find suspicious. You, a claimed pro town role were attacked...there is nothing odd about that. Early on when you claimed you hedged about and it was not clear if you were truly claiming.

5) is the same faulty reasoning you used to get me lynched, which you admitted was mostly gut, and as we know your gut said GH was guilty.


Now, I'm all for granting that Chaotix might be a mafioso with a resurrection ability. If you think so, you are welcome to keep blocking him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My, my, getting personal, are we? If you have some issue with me, take it to PM - no need to bring such messy things out in the open like this.

Nothing personal, just an in-game objection to such a terrible move.

And I can't PM anyone about this game. I'm dead. You had something to do with that.

[TinCow]

1) & 2) can be disproven easily, if given a chance.

I remember saying very similar things in Netherworld I. In any case, the role is inherently ridiculous. It's an obvious fake.

3) is guilt by association

No, it's guilt because he behaved in an absurd manner defending you. There are plenty of decent ways to find a townie to volunteer to die to save a pro-town role, and that was not one of them. Asking every single person who's about to get lynched to do it is scummy beyond belief.

4) is a coincidence that you find suspicious. You, a claimed pro town role were attacked...there is nothing odd about that. Early on when you claimed you hedged about and it was not clear if you were truly claiming.

Now you're not paying attention, I was attacked on N3. I fully revealed on N2. It was well-known who I was by then.

5) is the same faulty reasoning you used to get me lynched, which you admitted was mostly gut, and as we know your gut said GH was guilty.

It's only faulty reasoning if it's not true. Sometimes a role block will actually work.

[pevergreen]

'What's going on?' indeed. I didn't understand any of that post.

You have to have been around a while to get most of that. the most recent is peverreenk. The lemur one is before my time and Curse of Kage was an ongoing thing.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I remember saying very similar things in Netherworld I. In any case, the role is inherently ridiculous. It's an obvious fake.

What are you arguing here? That it should not be tested? I think you said something about playing it safe earlier didn't you? This is very clearly a poor strategy.

No, it's guilt because he behaved in an absurd manner defending you. There are plenty of decent ways to find a townie to volunteer to die to save a pro-town role, and that was not one of them. Asking every single person who's about to get lynched to do it is scummy beyond belief.

You say it's absurd as town, but don't explain why it wouldn't be absurd as mafia. Why would he throw himself out there to save a doomed partner?

This brings me to another main flaw in my argument. His role claim is inherently ridiculous and an obvious fake and he behaved in an absurd manner. That should lead you to the conclusion that he is not my mafia partner.

Now you're not paying attention, I was attacked on N3. I fully revealed on N2. It was well-known who I was by then.

So you fully revealed and were attacked the next night, therefore chaotix tried to kill you because you gave him the code?

It's only faulty reasoning if it's not true.

No, that's blatantly false. If I reason "this coin will definitely come up heads three times in a row", and it does, my reasoning was still faulty.

[Chaotix]

You know what, because I am in the mood not to care, and technically, this will only ruin my fun, I'll reveal. I am capable of redirecting abilities to myself, and am immune to night attacks - however, someone still has to die to fulfill the illusion, if I am attacked - it won't be their original target however.

I am the illusions that the Lamia, a Dog-Like creature, and the Perseus rider have all attacked. I've earned the ire of the mafia already,, which would be the Lamia, and I know for a fact that two people capable of killing are Atheotes (Dog-Creature, possibly Anubis) and CCRunner (Mr fancy pants flying horse rider). Chaotix is more then likely Yama, and as you can see, minus the Lamia, that accounts for all killers.

I am sure TC will be able to find out about the Lamia, but as for me, I've wanted to have fun from the beginning, and simply play out my role. Now I can.

Have fun, mafia scum.

Thank you.

Now, why don't we vote for the more-or-less confirmed scum instead of me, who is not scum at all?


I'm not going to be coming back to this thread. I am honestly sick and tired of getting lynched because I have a pro-town role and try to help the town. If you look at what I've been doing, it does not benefit a mafia at all.

If I have been revealing to townies before they die (and indeed I have), then wouldn't that be a case for me not to be mafia? You said it yourself: it only draws attention to me.

Why would a mafioso draw attention to himself by deliberately contacting soon-to-be dead people who have nothing to lose and might reveal me as a last ditch?

Why would I reveal myself at all and take the risk? If I am Yama, then I clearly don't have the power I claim I do. What would be the purpose of contacting them?

Why would I continue to paint a big target on my face in the thread for trying to reason with Sasaki, even after people were voting for me? Why would I even try to reverse that massive bandwagon when it would only fail and draw suspicion to me from the town?

The answer is simple. I needed to figure out who the pro-town roles were, and I needed a list of townies that I could use to revive you, TinCow, in case you died. I wanted to help you.

When I am mafia, I don't go around garnering attention. I lurk, and I shrug off or ignore votes when they come to me. You can go ahead and check out every game that I've been mafia, and I've done the same thing.

But go ahead, lynch your ally. Do whatever you want, TinCow. Because, after tonight, YLC will die, and they will be looking for Garuda to kill, and when they find him, you are next. And there will still be Yama around, laughing in your face once I am dead. And the town will have to find him without you, and definitely without YLC, who has been the town's greatest asset so far, apparently.

I don't think I'm going to post again this round. I might, if I get myself worked up again. But I'm annoyed, and I don't want to argue a losing bandwagon any more. Let me know if I somehow survive, won't you?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know if I buy YLC's claim or the specific accusations. But can we at least get a counter bandwagon on atheotes?

[Chaotix]

Because my vote was invalid in the last post.

Vote: atheotes

[Winston Hughes]

You have to have been around a while to get most of that. the most recent is peverreenk. The lemur one is before my time and Curse of Kage was an ongoing thing.

That's nice, but the part I found most difficult to understand was the part where you voted to lynch me.

[pevergreen]

I don't know if I buy YLC's claim or the specific accusations. But can we at least get a counter bandwagon on atheotes?

I'm happy on top on Winston.

[johnhughthom]

So Winston tell me, you have some kind of special role that keeps you from voting for anybody else but john? And what happens if he actually dies? Or are you just really cranky?

I think he took my unexplained vote for him in the first round to heart.

[Beskar]

@CCRunner
Just what is your role? Who are you?

@atheotes
What is your role? Who are you?

[Winston Hughes]

I think he took my unexplained vote for him in the first round to heart.

It's true. I can hardly contain my rage at the sheer injustice of it. Does not a man deserve to know the nature of the crimes of which he is accused? I demand explanation!

[johnhughthom]

It's true. I can hardly contain my rage at the sheer injustice of it. Does not a man deserve to know the nature of the crimes of which he is accused? I demand explanation!

Honestly, I voted for you because I like your name. I realise that is a terrible crime and beg understanding and forgiveness (not papal forgiveness, the real thing).

[TinCow]

What are you arguing here? That it should not be tested? I think you said something about playing it safe earlier didn't you? This is very clearly a poor strategy.

Based on his behavior and his role claim, lynching him IS playing it safe. The risk is leaving him alive.

You say it's absurd as town, but don't explain why it wouldn't be absurd as mafia. Why would he throw himself out there to save a doomed partner?

Bad play. It happens.

his brings me to another main flaw in my argument. His role claim is inherently ridiculous and an obvious fake and he behaved in an absurd manner. That should lead you to the conclusion that he is not my mafia partner.

Why? Because you partners never make mistakes?

So you fully revealed and were attacked the next night, therefore chaotix tried to kill you because you gave him the code?

Nope, I was just pointing out that you were creating arguments for the sake of arguing, without basing them on the facts. The entire reason you're arguing here is just to create doubt with wordiness.

No, that's blatantly false. If I reason "this coin will definitely come up heads three times in a row", and it does, my reasoning was still faulty.

Sorry, Sasaki, a drop in kills due to a roleblock is not faulty reasoning no matter how many times you say it. It may not be the strongest evidence ever, but it's certainly valid in its own right. If that were the only evidence against Chaotix, I wouldn't even have made this case, but the cumulative evidence is very strong.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Because it's clearly irrelevant and no one besides me is interested in this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll grant that YLC might be a town asset. So let me ask someone who might be more likely to respond, meaning anyone: WHY did he lie to me and suggest he could make me lynch immune? What was the point of that? How does it benefit the team to get me to waste an entire round on myself, thinking I was lynch immune? I could have attracted murders in my direction, too, with a false role claim.

It's a darn good thing I am not worth reviving, that's all I will say. If we win this game, fine... I just want to know why I wasn't even worth giving an explanation to when I was screwed out of my life so badly by a supposedly pro-town character.

[TinCow]

But go ahead, lynch your ally. Do whatever you want, TinCow. Because, after tonight, YLC will die, and they will be looking for Garuda to kill, and when they find him, you are next. And there will still be Yama around, laughing in your face once I am dead. And the town will have to find him without you, and definitely without YLC, who has been the town's greatest asset so far, apparently.

YLC claims he can't be killed at night.

[ULC]

Thank you.

Now, why don't we vote for the more-or-less confirmed scum instead of me, who is not scum at all?


I'm not going to be coming back to this thread. I am honestly sick and tired of getting lynched because I have a pro-town role and try to help the town. If you look at what I've been doing, it does not benefit a mafia at all.

If I have been revealing to townies before they die (and indeed I have), then wouldn't that be a case for me not to be mafia? You said it yourself: it only draws attention to me.

Why would a mafioso draw attention to himself by deliberately contacting soon-to-be dead people who have nothing to lose and might reveal me as a last ditch?

Why would I reveal myself at all and take the risk? If I am Yama, then I clearly don't have the power I claim I do. What would be the purpose of contacting them?

Why would I continue to paint a big target on my face in the thread for trying to reason with Sasaki, even after people were voting for me? Why would I even try to reverse that massive bandwagon when it would only fail and draw suspicion to me from the town?

The answer is simple. I needed to figure out who the pro-town roles were, and I needed a list of townies that I could use to revive you, TinCow, in case you died. I wanted to help you.

When I am mafia, I don't go around garnering attention. I lurk, and I shrug off or ignore votes when they come to me. You can go ahead and check out every game that I've been mafia, and I've done the same thing.

But go ahead, lynch your ally. Do whatever you want, TinCow. Because, after tonight, YLC will die, and they will be looking for Garuda to kill, and when they find him, you are next. And there will still be Yama around, laughing in your face once I am dead. And the town will have to find him without you, and definitely without YLC, who has been the town's greatest asset so far, apparently.

I don't think I'm going to post again this round. I might, if I get myself worked up again. But I'm annoyed, and I don't want to argue a losing bandwagon any more. Let me know if I somehow survive, won't you?

That's all well and good, except for the fact I am night kill immune. The only way I am leaving this godforsaken place is if you, as a collective whole, lynch me.

Also, TC is not a killer - I've already checked him, and Seon is clean as well. Me and him have been working together these past few nights. I still believe you are Yama, Chaotix, and will hold you to that by putting you permanently under my shadow until I see fit that you are innocent. Either way, it will be a boon to us, the town.

[ULC]

Because it's clearly irrelevant and no one besides me is interested in this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll grant that YLC might be a town asset. So let me ask someone who might be more likely to respond, meaning anyone: WHY did he lie to me and suggest he could make me lynch immune? What was the point of that? How does it benefit the team to get me to waste an entire round on myself, thinking I was lynch immune? I could have attracted murders in my direction, too, with a false role claim.

It's a darn good thing I am not worth reviving, that's all I will say. If we win this game, fine... I just want to know why I wasn't even worth giving an explanation to when I was screwed out of my life so badly by a supposedly pro-town character.

That is quite simple - I didn't. I even joked about it, and when I thought you had taken it seriously, I even tried to warn you that I could not make you lynch immune.

For clarification, I told ATPG early on that I was a stump, that I had no vote and could not be removed from the game (partially true ) - I told him we could be a duo, knowing that he carried a "lynch immune without actual ability" air about him, I thought we could perpetuate that farce, and he could act as my cover as I fed the town information.

It didn't pan out - sorry toots

[Winston Hughes]

Honestly, I voted for you because I like your name.

You like my name? Ah, well that paints things in a very different light. I like getting compliments. Doesn't happen often. I wonder why...

unvote: johnhughthom; vote: pevergreen

[pevergreen]

Because it's clearly irrelevant and no one besides me is interested in this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll grant that YLC might be a town asset. So let me ask someone who might be more likely to respond, meaning anyone: WHY did he lie to me and suggest he could make me lynch immune? What was the point of that? How does it benefit the team to get me to waste an entire round on myself, thinking I was lynch immune? I could have attracted murders in my direction, too, with a false role claim.

It's a darn good thing I am not worth reviving, that's all I will say. If we win this game, fine... I just want to know why I wasn't even worth giving an explanation to when I was screwed out of my life so badly by a supposedly pro-town character.

tbh you are annoyingly powerful while alive and dead.

The players who don't go out on a limb (most of the players from capo and before, plus a few more recent ones, TinCow, khaan et al) just follow whatever you say, from game to game.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Based on his behavior and his role claim, lynching him IS playing it safe. The risk is leaving him alive.

No it isn't, not in the slightest. Test the claim, then roleblock him if you must. Not risky.

Bad play. It happens.

That works equally well against your argument. Even more so, since townies are more prone to bad play than mafia.

Why? Because you partners never make mistakes?

Straw man. Who said anything about "never making mistakes"? Role pm's, claims, and strategy are certainly a group effort when I'm mafia, check any old quicktopic.

Nope, I was just pointing out that you were creating arguments for the sake of arguing, without basing them on the facts. The entire reason you're arguing here is just to create doubt with wordiness.

Complete sidestep and slander to boot. I made a legitimate criticism of your argument. You are unwilling to argue because you are convinced of your theory.

Sorry, Sasaki, a drop in kills due to a roleblock is not faulty reasoning no matter how many times you say it. It may not be the strongest evidence ever, but it's certainly valid in its own right. If that were the only evidence against Chaotix, I wouldn't even have made this case, but the cumulative evidence is very strong.

You said that "it's only faulty reasoning if it's not true", do you agree or disagree that this is completely false?

I know first hand how weak your roleblock-->mafioso accusations are. You have said that it doesn't stand on it's own right, and your other arguments have been dealt with.


******************


At this point, you have ceased logically or rationally defending your case. You contradict yourself, make claims that are logically false, claims that are untrue, and ignore any evidence that contradicts your theory, while admitting none of the proven flaws of your argument.

[TinCow]

At this point, you have ceased logically or rationally defending your case. You contradict yourself, make claims that are logically false, claims that are untrue, and ignore any evidence that contradicts your theory, while admitting none of the proven flaws of your argument.

You have produced no evidence, you have simply argued mafia game theory. The very fact that you find Chaotix's role believable is even more evidence against him. There were only 2 people in Netherworld I that didn't believe my fake role: Andres and you. You've either grown gullible, or you're defending your buddy. I don't buy the former.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That is quite simple - I didn't. I even joked about it, and when I thought you had taken it seriously, I even tried to warn you that I could not make you lynch immune.

For clarification, I told ATPG early on that I was a stump, that I had no vote and could not be removed from the game (partially true ) - I told him we could be a duo, knowing that he carried a "lynch immune without actual ability" air about him, I thought we could perpetuate that farce, and he could act as my cover as I fed the town information.

It didn't pan out - sorry toots

I think you "warned" me when I was about to be lynched, which I consider too late. So the joke is on me, ha ha. Just pointing out how pointless and wasteful it was.

@pevergreen-

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Australia?

[pevergreen]

What does that have to do with the price of tea in Australia?

I don't see the connection, but I laughed.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You have produced no evidence, you have simply argued mafia game theory.

...yes? And what are you doing? Besides contradicting yourself and making logically false statements. The only evidence you have is a roleblock which you say you wouldn't make a case on, the rest is mafia game theory as well. "this makes no sense for a pro town role to do", "this role would not be in one of khaan's games".

The very fact that you find Chaotix's role believable is even more evidence against him. There were only 2 people in Netherworld I that didn't believe my fake role: Andres and you. You've either grown gullible, or you're defending your buddy. I don't buy the former.

I haven't read his role pm. If it can be tested it should be, he may still be a mafioso if it is. Regardless, it should be tested, rather than bandwagoning here. With a roleblocker, we are in the luxury position of being able to leave a claimed pro town role alive without risk.

[Double A]

unvote, vote: atheotes

If a deflector shield type role is in the game, it's not so hard to believe that there's a reviver who has to sacrifice someone to bring someone else back.

And confirmed killer > unconfirmed ? role

... - Sigurd

[Kralizec]

That's all well and good, except for the fact I am night kill immune. The only way I am leaving this godforsaken place is if you, as a collective whole, lynch me.

Also, TC is not a killer - I've already checked him, and Seon is clean as well. Me and him have been working together these past few nights. I still believe you are Yama, Chaotix, and will hold you to that by putting you permanently under my shadow until I see fit that you are innocent. Either way, it will be a boon to us, the town.

I don't believe this, or at least not for now. "Night kill immune" seems like a ridiculously unbalanced role, especially if you're capable of investigating.

Since I'm off to bed in a couple of minutes and don't want to get WoG'ed,
Vote: YLC

[ULC]

I don't believe this, or at least not for now. "Night kill immune" seems like a ridiculously unbalanced role, especially if you're capable of investigating.

Since I'm off to bed in a couple of minutes and don't want to get WoG'ed,
Vote: YLC

Deary me, apparently this one is a bit lost- educate him we shall. I said I can redirect another roles ability to me, not investigate, silly little one.

Hmmm...I shall keep my eye on you, and maybe in you...hmmm...

[naut]

Ah! YLC, that is a pretty epic power you have.

Vote: Chaotix

Seems everything has come out into the open now, but you played us like fools last time TinCow so I'm sure you'll understand if I'm somewhat wary of you.