The Geert Wilders trial

[Fragony]

Glad we agree on something. Seen it all before.

And Louis you don't have a well enough understanding of Dutch society to place this indo-thingie in the proper context, it's sneaky, by suggesting these silly things like indo-heritage or sexual frustration you make one come across as damaged goods, if you strayed from the true path you must be mad, and there is no real reason to not agree with them. The worst part is that some people fall for it. It starts with the question 'where does his irrelevant hate come from'? Well it kinda starts all wrong all there because you will always end up wrapping everything around the assumption that it is irrational hate, I don't go in discussion from such a starting point and neither will mr Wilders. Cheap tactics to avoid any real discussion.

And Wilders isn't all that extreme in the first place, nothing like the BNP or FNP, there is a reason he doesn't want to be associated with these guys, that reason being not being quite the same thing. There is a reason he is popular among moderate muslims, mostly Turks. They don't want to be associated with the more hardcore stuff.

[Furunculus]

Yes.

did they prosecute and jail him?

if yes, has he served his sentence and now free?

is he breaking the law right now?

[Hax]

did they prosecute and jail him?

We're kinda working on it right now.

[Fragony]

Oh you see that wrong, they are working on how they are going to get out of this mess with a straight face. Even the Volkskrant printed a few comments/columns that aren't exactly in favor of this trial, thx for the mess anyhow because what these idiots don't understand is that they will have to defend the islam to prosecute Wilders, and that is going to be hard as he has plenty of ammunition, they have made a huge mistake with this trial.

[Skullheadhq]

In the meantime, we'll just lol at Hitl...Wilders while he's being prosecuted.

[Fragony]

In the meantime, we'll just lol at Hitl...Wilders while he's being prosecuted.

Have a blast, things didn't quite turn out as they expected, instead of being the hero going against the blond satan they turned out to be the butchers of free speech in public opinion, and Wilders the one man against the machine. Even people who strongly disagree with him are disgusted.

[Beskar]

I can't help thinking. How would people react if it was Nick Griffin?

[Furunculus]

I can't help thinking. How would people react if it was Nick Griffin?

is that implied guilt by association?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I can't help thinking. How would people react if it was Nick Griffin?

I detest Nick Griffin and the racist ideas he stands for, but freedom of speech is his right, and I will defend it for him as I would defend it for everyone else. That doesn't mean I won't strongly object to what he says, though.

Still, Wilders is no Griffin.

[Beskar]

Still, Wilders is no Griffin.

I apologise, from what I heard, he is basically the Dutch Nick Griffin. Which is why I admittedly, never took any comments in support of him seriously. As you might know, Nick has a long criminal record.

[Fragony]

I apologise, from what I heard, he is basically the Dutch Nick Griffin. Which is why I admittedly, never took any comments in support of him seriously. As you might know, Nick has a long criminal record.

He split with the liberal party because of their stance on Turkey in Europe. I like him because he hates political correctness as much as I do and he isn't shy of a little provocation, but he is no extremist.

Here he gets a little heat for a change https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lMkwH9ODCU

And I agree with him.

[HoreTore]

Even people who strongly disagree with him are disgusted.

Indeed.

I object as much to trials like this as I object to Wilders idiotic ideas. Get the scum out in the open, meet them with words, and they will wither and die. Besides such trials being a massive crime against humanity, they are also counter-productive.

[Fragony]

Indeed.

I object as much to trials like this as I object to Wilders idiotic ideas. Get the scum out in the open, meet them with words, and they will wither and die. Besides such trials being a massive crime against humanity, they are also counter-productive.

Almost glad you feel that way ;)

[Skullheadhq]

Frag, if he is no criminal, he will not be convicted, why so scared?

[Fragony]

Frag, if he is no criminal, he will not be convicted, why so scared?

My trust in their ability or their, well judgement, took the plane to Turkey and is now running a nightclub in Allanja.

[The Wizard]

This is not what the antropologist Van Leeuwen says:

But more than anything, he [Wilders] was defined by his Indo-roots, she says. Indonesia was a Dutch colony until 1949 and many mixed-race people moved to the Netherlands after the Indonesian independence. Van Leeuwen describes how these people were put in the same 'cultural minority' box with labour immigrants from Turkey and Morocco, whom they felt no connection to at all. More so, they had always felt very patriotic about the Netherlands and harboured strong sentiments against Islam, the dominant religion in their motherland.

Van Leeuwen explains how this group has long been part of extreme-right movements (many supported the Dutch Nazi party NSB in Indonesia in the 1930s) while others belonged to the far-right of the right-wing liberal party VVD. She puts Wilders' statements in the conservative and colonial tradition of this group, which strongly believed in patriotism and "European values".

Well, she's wrong, LOL. The Indo people do not have a pied noir complex. If anybody, as said, has such a thing in Holland, it's the Moluccans. Please, read up on the makeup of our society and the identity of our minorities before accepting the conclusions of a single study.

EDIT: Also, I take exception to being accused of "not talking about it" or "denying" it. I simply am of the opinion that this is sidetracking the debate while far more important issues are at hand. I am also of the opinion that this woman's argument is badly structured, ignores anything that doesn't fit into her story and is incongruent and incorrect when it comes to the identity of minorities in Holland. She doesn't even acknowledge the fact that to the vast majority of Dutchmen, Wilders is not an Indo but some dude from the Catholic, Belgianesque south of the country, which is a completely different minority with completely different connotations for the majority.

[Skullheadhq]

My trust in their ability or their, well judgement, took the plane to Turkey and is now running a nightclub in Allanja.

Ah yeah, that pimp... but I don't think Wilders will take the plane to turkey and wil start a brothel there :D

[HoreTore]

Frag, if he is no criminal, he will not be convicted, why so scared?

So..... You believe that anyone who breaks the blasphemy laws are criminals, and that they belong in jail?

Anyway, if he is convicted, I hope the EHRC will slap the dutch courts. With a proper, principal ruling in that court, maybe we will finally see the end of the blasphemy nonsense.

[The Wizard]

He's not being charged with blasphemy laws... he's being charged with discriminating against groups based on their beliefs and heritage.

[Kralizec]

Hmmm. The actual article from the Groene Amsterdammer (Link 1 and link 2) also says something about Frits Bolkenstein, another Dutch politician who served as EU commissionar for the internal market until a couple of years ago.

One of the first well-known politicians who was distinctly critical about the immigration policy was VVD member Frits Bolkenstein, who has an Indian mother (in this context this means "from the Dutch Indies"- Kralizec). He caught attention because in his day he was the only EU-commissionar who was fiercely against Turkey's possible accession to the EU. Also, so reports the KRO tv-show Reporter, he sabotaged trade relations with Indonesia while he was state secretary for Foreign Trade, something he was accused of earlier when he was employed by Shell in Indonesia. As an assistant to Bolkestein Wilders wrote many speeches for Bolkestein, wich lead to his entry as MP for the VVD in 1998.

I think we've seen only the tip of the iceberg here. There's obviously a conspiracy by people of (partial) Indonesian descent to cause antagonism between the Netherlands and muslim countries for their own purposes.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I think we've seen only the tip of the iceberg here. There's obviously a conspiracy by people of (partial) Indonesian descent to cause antagonism between the Netherlands and muslim countries for their own purposes.

I hope this is sarcastic. I don't see why descendants of immigrants are not allowed to be opponents of excessive immigration.

[Megas Methuselah]

I hope this is sarcastic. I don't see why descendants of immigrants are not allowed to be opponents of excessive immigration.

I thought you were able to recognize sarcasm after enduring my insanity.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I thought you were able to recognize sarcasm after enduring my insanity.

You never know these days.

[Kralizec]

As the anthropologist says, we're talking about a politician who is against immigration and has foreign blood. We'll have to rule out coincidence, and look for the explanation of his individual views in the collective history of millions of people. And dying your hair is an obvious sign that the person involved hates his ethnic origins.
Then, we have another politician who's also skeptic of immigration and also has foreign blood. That makes two, further proof that this can't be a coincidence. It's not as if there are hundreds of politicians...

I hope this is sarcastic.

Truth suffers from too much analysis.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Strike For The South]

Wilders= Uncle Tom?

[Louis VI the Fat]

There's obviously a conspiracy by people of (partial) Indonesian descent to cause antagonism between the Netherlands and muslim countries for their own purposes.

I don't see why descendants of immigrants are not allowed to be opponents of excessive immigration.

I am happy to learn that by some as of yet unknown mechanism, the Dutch are uniquely in Europe completely free from any post-colonial trauma, revanchism or displacedness.
I am also happy to learn that despite what every anthropologist or political scientist says, there is no Indo community in the Netherlands, these non-existing people have no post-colonial trauma, and unlike each and every other repatriated colonial group in Europe, their integration into the society of the motherland has left not a single scar.

You learn something new every day. In particular, the depths to which taboo and a culture of silence may have a stranglehold on even modern 21st century European societies.
If only Adrian were here, I could rub in how right I was when I said that 'silence' is the Dutch way of dealing with the past. I've hit the same brick wall when stating obvious truths about the Dutch past that are commonly accepted throughout the world, but remain stubbornly denied, or even more worryingly, as is also the case with Wilders' origin here, completely unknown in the Netherlands.



Look, unease about immigration and anti-Islamic sentiment is common throughout Europe, and not less common in countries and cultures that do not have any displaced former colonials in the first place. This is blisteringly obvious, so it should be equally obvious that an exploration of Wilders' origins is not meant as a complete explanation of his thought, nor of that of his followers. To dismiss it as such is a strawman at best, and painful anti-intellectualism at worst.

[Kralizec]

Meh.

Despite the fact that sociology and anthropology tend to be vague in the extreme, I accept that it can be useful in explaining certain trends and forms of behaviour in large groups of people.
I do not accept that you can use either to draw meaningful conclusions about Wilder's personal motivations, or about his reasons to dye his hair.

[Beskar]

I have to be honest, wasn't too impressed by the video Fragony posted. A bunch of his comments, would be the same as me showing clips of fundamentalist christians in America then me exposing "the evils of the christian religion". The news host actually makes some very good counter-arguments to him. Geert Wilders just picked up the clips from the radicals and just showed them as the mainstream opinion which was pretty dirty trick, as I said, i could do it identical using groups of fundamentalist christians from views such as bombing the Dome of the Rock, to rebuild the Temple of Solomon and other extremist viewpoints.

[Fragony]

It isn't all that impressive, comes down to that there is no place for radicals here. In 4 years his opponents will say that as well. That is how it always go, they scream bloody murder and bring in the guns, and 4 years later they have an eureka-moment and invent the wheel all by themselves.

[Beskar]

It isn't all that impressive, comes down to that there is no place for radicals here. In 4 years his opponents will say that as well. That is how it always go, they scream bloody murder and bring in the guns, and 4 years later they have an eureka-moment and invent the wheel all by themselves.

But there are extremist christians as well. ther are also a great many number of muslims which don't scream hate, shop at the disney store, females that don't wear burkas, etc.

I am even friends with a few of them. Painting all muslims as rabid animals is pretty dirty to do, as what you argue is the "left" is trying to say that this minority isn't an excuse to discriminate against all muslims and arabs.