Cav balance

[WinsingtonIII]

Wait so what about Getai BGs? I checked the stats and Getai BGs are in general superior. The only thing Epeirote BGs really have over them is very good stamina as opposed to good stamina. The Getai BGs get a much better secondary, a shield, and have the same lethality spear.....am I missing something here?

Wow, I didn't realize Dacian BG cavalry had 0.225 lethality long swords as secondaries (which is ironic considering my sig...). I've always loved the Getai, but in all of my campaigns I guess I never realized the true potential of these guys (although I certainly realized they were good), maybe because I go very infantry heavy as the Getai. That said, stats can be misleading, I haven't seen a one on one match up of Epeiros BG's and Getai BG's, so I am unsure as to how it would turn out. I'm fairly sure that in addition to somewhat better stamina, however, Epeiros BG's also are faster than Getai BG's. Of course, I may be wrong, because that stat is not listed in the online unit list, and I am not on my gaming comp with the EDU right now.

[vartan]

Wait so what about Getai BGs? I checked the stats and Getai BGs are in general superior. The only thing Epeirote BGs really have over them is very good stamina as opposed to good stamina. The Getai BGs get a much better secondary, a shield, and have the same lethality spear.....am I missing something here?

I don't know their stamina values. I believe the Getai have 0.225 lethal sword, Epirote 0.11. Getai have 1 more armour, and 3 shield (which Epirote do not have). Lance is same but Epirote has 2 extra charge. Don't forget though, that the Epirote has AP sword. All this considered, they seem equal to me.

You are referring to the Somatophylakes Strategou (Hellenic Bodyguard Cavalry) and Phylakes Daoi (Dacian Bodyguard Cavalry), are you not?

[machinor]

Epeirote BGs are the Molosson Agema, not the usual Hellenistic Somatophylakes Strategou. Molosson Agema have less Armor but more Stamina (not sure about the charge).

[antisocialmunky]

Molosson Agema have Stamina + Defense + Speed.

[ziegenpeter]

Epeirote BGs are the Molosson Agema, not the usual Hellenistic Somatophylakes Strategou. Molosson Agema have less Armor but more Stamina (not sure about the charge).

Well are you sure its the regular Molosson or is there a BG version? Their charge is lower, their armor and morale aswell.

[WinsingtonIII]

Well are you shure its the regular Molosson or is there a BG version? Their charge is lower, their armor and morale aswell.

There is a BG version. It is called Somatophylakes Strategou just like the Mak and AS BG's, but it has different stats that are pretty much identical to the Molosson Agema. The only difference is that the BG version has more morale, 18 instead of the normal 16.

[Grade_A_Beef]

No, I'm not by my computer and haven't played as Getai for a while, but I'm pretty sure they are also fast moving. The Epeirote BGs have very good stamina as opposed to good stamina with regards to speed. It's also listed that the Epeirotes are Very Hardy as opposed to the normal Hardy of the Getai BGs. The Hardy trait slows down stamina drain and boosts stamina recovery, right? I'm not sure.

And from what I can tell from the tests on secondaries (Pahalava late vs Baktrian late), .225 lethality trumps .11 lethality with AP...and that's with the Baktrians having the armor advantage. That advantage of the longsword will probably be even more pronounced considering the Getai and the Epeirotes have comparatively lower armor values.

[antisocialmunky]

Lance is still better for horse vs horse....

[Grade_A_Beef]

Can't argue against that.....but still, the longsword is much more useful in general than the kopis.

I'm very very biased against the kopis, despite using secondaries in a melee and having AS as one of my favorite factions....

[antisocialmunky]

True, and they are much much better against unarmored infantry/horse.

[gamegeek2]

For all interested, I'm working on balancing the Broken Crescent units to function like units in EB. I've been pretty successful so far, and will post some screenies.

It is for medieval units, but it's on the M2TW engine and there are analogous units.

[gamegeek2]

One thing I didn't do was make the lances AP - I tested it and it had significant balance problems, mainly being overpowered since lethality can't really be adjusted to EB levels anymore. The charge values are still high, but not as high as EB ones, though significantly higher than M2TW ones; the base attack of lances is small, making them nigh-useless in melee. This gives units that have a lance as a secondary a problem in melee, while those that use a small spear in melee get significant advantages over the ones with lances.

The following trial is on VH battle difficulty, which does not give unit bonuses/penalties in M2TW AFAIK.



These are the Khwarezmian Cataphract Lancers, our stand-in for sword-armed cataphracts. Here are their stats:

Primary: Lance; Atk 1, Chg 20
Secondary: Sword; Atk 6, Chg 2
Defense: 23 armour, 8 skill, 4 shield
Mount Mass: 3.9



These are the Royal Ghulam lancers, our stand-in for Hetairoi (and very analogous in stats compared with other units). They have a lance, and their secondary weapon is an armour-piercing mace, which receives the same stats as a kopis under my system. They use their shield in melee, but not when charging.

Primary: Lance; Atk 1, Chg 18
Secondary: Mace; Atk 4, Chg 2; ap
Defense: Armour 17, Skill 8, Shield 4
Mount Mass: 3.2

On defense skill, under my system they both get a +4 skill bonus for being upper-tier elite troops, but a -1 penalty for being mounted. As they are heavily armoured, no bonus is awarded (a +1 is given for medium armour and a +2 for light armour). The base defense skill for all units in my system is 5.



Our cataphracts charge into the Ghulams and cause 3 casualties upon impact, before the melee ensues. It ensues continuously, and both sides reduce each other to half strength (25 out of 50 starting troops) at the same time.

I ran a reverse trial, with me commanding the Ghulams and the AI with the cataphracts. This time, both sides lowered lances and charged, but the cataphracts were a bit late in doing so, and only some got the charge bonus. 2 Ghulams and 4 Cataphracts were killed on impact. The melee was again continuous, and the Ghulams had 30 men remaining when the cataphracts were reduced to half strength.

I re-ran the trial, but this time, the Cataphracts fought the Monaspa Lancers, shown below:



Under my system they have the following stats:

Primary: Lance; Atk 1, Chg 18
Secondary: Sword; Atk 6, Chg 2
Defense: Armour 17, Skill 8, Shield 4
Mount Mass: 3.2

Their stats are identical to those of the Ghulams, except with swords instead of maces.

First I fought twice as the cataphracts, who both smashed into the Monaspa, causing 5-6 casualties upon impact (suffering none of their own), as the Monaspa were late in lowering to charge. It was a slaughter, with the Cataphracts having 41-42 men left when the Monaspa were reduced to half strength.

I switched sides and fought as the Monaspa twice. The cataphracts were a bit late in lowering to charge, but still dealt the Monaspa 2-3 casualties on impact, while the Cataphracts took 1-2. Both times the Cataphracts had 41 men when the Monaspa were reduced to half strength.

So, this system passes one test the EB system fails - making ap weapons good at their job (piercing armour).

[ziegenpeter]

Cool, please tell us, when its done. BC was always a very appealing mod - Except for the weird cav!

[gamegeek2]

I'm done with most factions - have to do Oman, Makuria, the Rajputs, and the various merc units - then I'll be done. First I'll release the EDU for unit balance, then I might make a cost balance one as well.

[bobbin]

Cool, please tell us, when its done. BC was always a very appealing mod - Except for the weird cav!

Seconded, I have yet to see a M2TW mod with decent cav stats.

[gamegeek2]

EDIT: Made a crucial update, added the descr_mount file, which is essential to the rebalancing.

[gamegeek2]

I've uploaded the modified EDU for Broken Crescent v2.0 - the download link can be found here

I'd love to hear feedback, preferably soon. Thanks guys!

[Bucefalo]

I've uploaded the modified EDU for Broken Crescent v2.0 - the download link can be found here

I'd love to hear feedback, preferably soon. Thanks guys!

What version of BC are you running? I tried using your EDU with BC 2.02 but i am getting a error just at the splash screen. The error have to do with aor units and nobles, so perhaps it is something added after BC 2.0? I will try to reinstall BC up to 2.0 (without 2.02 patch) and report if i manage to start the game with your EDU. I also encourage other people to try! :)

[gamegeek2]

I've updated it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...21#post6733621

AOR units? Hmm...check system.log and tell me the error.

[Bucefalo]

Ok i reinstalled BC 2.0 and got it to work after installing a fix (CA_LIBS error). Then i placed your two files (edu and descr_mount) in data but the game is not starting now, this is the error in the log

15:00:20.000 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_unit.txt, at line 13111, column 1
Could not find soldier battle model for unit type 'ere_light_lancer'.

15:00:20.000 [data.invalid] [error] DATABASE_TABLE error found : error reading record from file broken_crescent/data/export_descr_unit.txt.

[gamegeek2]

I think I figured out what the error is.

I've put the fix on the TWC, and here's the link for convenience:

http://www.mediafire.com/?wz0yynznout

[ziegenpeter]

Thank you a lot!

[gamegeek2]

No problem.

It was a unit I had created myself whose EDU entry was hanging around in the uploaded files, so I cut that.

BTW, just put on another update balancing a few Georgian units.

Remember, changing descr_mount and EDU will NOT screw up your save games, but WILL take effect in your campaigns.

[Bucefalo]

This is very odd :S I´m having the same ctd at the splash screen as before (same error in the log)
I tried replacing this "ere_light_lancer" model in the entry with the one that was present in the original BC EDU "aor_wanatolian_nobles", so it looks like this:

type ere light lancer
dictionary ere_light_lancer ; Hosarii
category cavalry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_cavalry
banner holy crusade_cavalry
soldier aor_wanatolian_nobles, 32, 0, 1
mount bc heavy horse
mount_effect elephant -4, camel -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, can_formed_charge
formation 2, 4.4, 3, 6, 2, square, wedge
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 1, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 4, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 25, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 8, 4, leather
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, -2, -4, 0
stat_mental 12, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 45
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 860, 400, 120, 95, 860, 4, 180
armour_ug_levels 4
armour_ug_models aor_wanatolian_nobles
ownership byzantium, slave

but after doing that, i am still getting ctds but this time the log looks like this:

21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 43, column 197
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(france)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 43, column 197
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(poland)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 43, column 197
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(scotland)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 43, column 197
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(england)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 44, column 187
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(france)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 44, column 187
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(poland)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 44, column 187
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(scotland)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 44, column 187
unit(ere light lancer) does not match up to the ownership for faction(england)
21:08:24.843 [script.err] [error] Script Error in broken_crescent/data/export_descr_buildings.txt, at line 45, column 54
Unknown unit type specified: aor anatolian nobles

I was wondering if the .cfg file may have something to do, i had to download one to fix a CA_LIBS error, mine looks like this:

[features]
mod = broken_crescent

[log]
to=logs/system.log.txt
level =ai.ltgd trace
level =game.script* trace
file = game.script* logs/script.log.txt
file = ai.ltgd logs/ai.log.txt

[ai]
ltgd_logging = true

[video]
movies = false

[gamegeek2]

You could try completely deleting the unit, not sure how that'd work out for you.

[gamegeek2]

I've started working on a version for BC 2.02.

[Kival]

You could try completely deleting the unit, not sure how that'd work out for you.

I've had that idea befor and tried it a few hours ago and it does not solve the problem. Do you want to know in detail which delete/copy actions I've tried and which failure occurs?

[darius_d]

@ gamegeek2, EB team

And do you consider another type of balancing - by quantity of soldeirs per unit?
In EB 1.2 there are just 2 sizes for cav units no matter which faction or unit type - 50 and 20 (for L size) - the latter for general bodyguards and chariots.
While for infantry the unit size changes from 80 to 100 to 120.

Do you plan to differentiate it more for cav in EBII? So, will a unit of - say - roman cavalry have the same size as a unit of parthian cataphracts or Saka's light cav?