Charlie Wilson 1933-2010

[Centurion1]

As it is, it comes across as punching a guy in the face and then telling him there's no fighting allowed inside the house as you run to mama.

cheap? yes. do i regret it. oh no.

and ap thats just sick man, very sick.

[Aemilius Paulus]

and ap thats just sick man, very sick.

Oh yeah? Nice that you got it. That is precisely what I wanted you or some other unsuspecting Backroomer to say. Oh yes. Because it is hypocritical to cheer on Mr. Wilson while he killed young Soviet boys and then call me 'sick' when I take satisfaction in seeing young American boys die in Afghanistan today (who die in part thanks to Mr. Wilson, and with no Russian aid to the Taliban - which we have the moral right to do, if we reckon by the logic Mr. Wilson used).

I do not cheer on USSR when someone mentions that we supplied weapons to the North Vietnam - it was dirty, sick politics, even if it was a natural thing to do for superpowers to supply weapons to the enemies of the opposing superpower. But you seem to have a more positive opinion in regards to US funding of Mujahideen...

Do you get it now? I knew you were likely to answer 'that's just sick', but it nevertheless makes my blood simmer that you did say so, just from its sheer hypocrisy. Because blind nationalism sucks, and you can also ask HoreTore - I am sure he will tell you his opinion on nationalism. I do not take joy from seeing politicians fund murder. I am not proud of the aid we sent to North Vietnam - on the contrary, it causes sorrow for me. It is a shame I cannot say the same of you.

[Strike For The South]

You assume that we honor Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets.

Edit: Cmon Cen, I could see that bait a mile away. You'd make a terrible bass

[Aemilius Paulus]

You assume that we honor Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets.

I do not assume, I know. Of course, far from all honour him because of that - and there are other things this bloke did, but most acknowledge his role in Afghanistan as a positive contribution (and many, many more liked him because of this before US stuck its own in the mess in Afghanistan.

Edit: Cmon Cen, I could see that bait a mile away. You'd make a terrible bass

Pffft, hindsight 20/20. I am wondering how you are still posting when by all accounts your computer monitor should be broken by now, due to the exponential increase in the length of your nose...

And I will point out that it was not baiting, or at least not in the SFTS sense - since my post was a bait in its function. People get warnings or infractions as a result of your baits, which are often pointless - other than for the sake of your amusement - I can see no other reason than that (well, some other people might laugh, alright, I will give that to you). In fact, my first-ever warning was a result of your bait (Do you prefer subtitled or translated movies? thread in the Frontroom). I put that statement for the sake of an effective political argument, to open up the minds of those who probably needed it - example, Centurion1. Of course, at the cost of momentarily disgusting others, but that is what I am willing to pay.




EDIT: To prove my point about people liking Mr. Wilson, how else do you explain this statement:

it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*


Damn me if this is not a person who supports Mr. Wilson for his contribution to the Soviet deaths in Afghanistan. You can wax lyrical all you want about how the poster was not serious, but how can a person sorry for the deaths can make a joke about dead soldiers, a joke which supports their deaths? Once again, damn me if that is not a US 'patriot'. Like I said, blind nationalism sucks, to put it in crude terms.







EDIT2: The intro paragraph in his Wikipedia page:

Charles Nesbitt Wilson (June 1, 1933 – February 10, 2010) was a former United States naval officer and former 12-term Democratic United States Representative from the 2nd congressional district in Texas.

He was best known for leading Congress into supporting Operation Cyclone, the largest-ever CIA covert operation, which under the Reagan administration supplied military equipment, including anti-aircraft weapons such as Stinger antiaircraft missiles, and paramilitary officers from their Special Activities Division to the Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet war in Afghanistan. His behind-the-scenes campaign was the subject of the non-fiction book Charlie Wilson's War by George Crile III [1] and a subsequent film adaptation starring Tom Hanks, Amy Adams, Julia Roberts and Philip Seymour Hoffman. [1]


Fraaaack, Americans even made a film glorifying his contributions in Afghanistan??? How much easier do you guys have to make my argument? As General Patton said, the argument 'Americans honour Mr.Wilson because he killed Soviets is just a wrong assumption' cannot fight its own way out of a urine-soaked paper bag

If anything, Wikipedia is the No. 1 authority on what people are best known for. And his page does not even mention any of his other accomplishments, other than the standard 'which are the highest offices this bloke held'. I can bet a dollar to doughnut that 98% of the non-Texan Americans cannot say anything more about Mr. Wilson than that Wiki intro paragraph.

[Strike For The South]

I do not assume, I know. Of course, far from all honour him because of that - and there are other things this bloke did, but most acknowledge his role in Afghanistan as a positive contribution (and many, many more liked him because of this before US stuck its own in the mess in Afghanistan.

One can still recognize what he did in Afghanistan while simultaneously realizing that people did die and it was a tragedy and no one one should be "counting points" so to speak. The two are not mutually exclussive nor have they ever been or ever will be such is the human condition.

Pffft, hindsight 20/20. I am wondering how you are still posting when by all accounts your computer monitor should be broken by now, due to the exponential increase in the length of your nose...

A pinocchio reference? nice

And I will point out that it was not baiting, or at least not in the SFTS sense - since my post was a bait in its function. People get warnings or infractions as a result of your baits, which are often pointless - other than for the sake of your amusement - I can see no other reason than that (well, some other people might laugh, alright, I will give that to you). In fact, my first-ever warning was a result of your bait (Do you prefer subtitled or translated movies? thread in the Frontroom). I put that statement for the sake of an effective political argument, to open up the minds of those who probably needed it - example, Centurion1. Of course, at the cost of momentarily disgusting others, but that is what I am willing to pay.

To assume my baits have no purpose is an egregious error on any ones parts. I simply think me and you have different posting styles, you like long academic style posts while I feel much more is said in what you don't write down than what you do.

conciseness is a great skill to have

Edit: And it was a bait, you knew the kind of reaction you wanted and went fishing, don't be ashamed.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Edit: And it was a bait, you knew the kind of reaction you wanted and went fishing, don't be ashamed.

Yah, I know. Why do you say so? I admitted this in the post. I just had to justify it to the moderator. Baiting is normally a negative thing which the mods pursue (not in a good way obviously).


Hehe, nice one, 'went fishing'

conciseness is a great skill to have

Oh, you can bet I agree with you. But just as I take detailed posts to the extreme, so you take the concise posts to the extreme. My posts are unnecessarily and tiringly long, and your posts are not long enough to well elaborate your position and argument. Throwing words around with no explanations is just as ineffective as writing posts so long that few read them. We both need to work to improve out styles.

[Aemilius Paulus]

So what happened to the freedom fighters in Afghanistan? There were so, so many of them just twenty years ago... They could not have all died or disappeared so fast, could they?

Now I turn on the telly and hear of nothing but terrorists . No wonder US went to punish those people. Afghanistan was such a great country with so many freedom fighters before those damned terrorist took over and killed of the good freedom fighters.





Do I remember something about Mr. Wilson saying 'pay back the Soviets'??

[The Wizard]

Charlie Wilson helped strike a blow for people who had legitimate reasons to take up arms against Soviet imperialism. His commitment to Afghanistan went beyond mere power politics considering he was one of the very few advocating aid to the country to help it rebuild after the Soviet withdrawal had sealed the U.S.'s victory. There is far less to hate about this democratically elected Congressman than there is about Soviet technocrats and dictators funding the NVA.

[Centurion1]

EDIT: To prove my point about people liking Mr. Wilson, how else do you explain this statement:

it's okay you guys ended got second place.......

proxy wars for the world *woot woot*


Damn me if this is not a person who supports Mr. Wilson for his contribution to the Soviet deaths in Afghanistan. You can wax lyrical all you want about how the poster was not serious, but how can a person sorry for the deaths can make a joke about dead soldiers, a joke which supports their deaths? Once again, damn me if that is not a US 'patriot'. Like I said, blind nationalism sucks, to put it in crude terms.

I assumed the woot woot would imply to joking nature of the comment. Do i support the deaths of the Soviet soldiers? I support the tactical reasoning behind it even if I do not wish for human lives to be wasted. Charlie Wilson's help in this matter helped bring the Soviet Union to it's knees. It would be hypocritical for anyone who knows my politics to say i was not pleased with that.

sure i wish there was a way no soviet soldiers died. But what i found classless about your post was the fact that you consoled yourself as if one death made the other better. One life doesn't excuse another.

So know i do not feel as though i am celebrating the deaths of soviet union soldiers by celebrating this mans memory. I am celebrating the fall of the soviet union one step further.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Charlie Wilson helped strike a blow for people who had legitimate reasons to take up arms against Soviet imperialism.

So you are admitting USSR had the right to help the North Vietnam? I would take them before the Mujahideen, and even now we can see the result of a communist Vietnam vs Taleban Aghanistan.

His commitment to Afghanistan went beyond mere power politics considering he was one of the very few advocating aid to the country to help it rebuild after the Soviet withdrawal had sealed the U.S.'s victory.

And? A right does not make another wrong right, and I seriously doubt he was advocating the aid from altruistic reasons. If he was worth his salt, then he could have possibly recognised the danger of a devastated Afghanistan in the hands of radical Muslims...

There is far less to hate about this democratically elected Congressman than there is about Soviet technocrats and dictators funding the NVA.

When did I say that I liked Soviet technocrats? Does the existence of greater evils absolve a smaller evil and shield him from criticism? This thread, IIRC, was about Mr. Wilson, and not the Soviet tecnocrats/NVA...