An Unlikely Pair [Concluded]

[CCRunner]

Pssh, I'm not inactive! Just very busy... I did post my accusation though. And if I don't respond, it's because I have nothing to add

Anyway, I am a town watch common thief as well. I'm not voting at the moment, but I will in a few hours. In the meantime... carry on good sirs

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pssh, I'm not inactive! Just very busy... I did post my accusation though. And if I don't respond, it's because I have nothing to add

Anyway, I am a town watch common thief as well. I'm not voting at the moment, but I will in a few hours. In the meantime... carry on good sirs

If you're a common thief, then that confirms what I thought. Myself, Secura, CCRunner, Beskar, and Subotan are all basic thieves.

That makes Diamondeye and atheotes the odd men out.

Reason why the game is "an Unlikely Pair" is because they have a mission to destroy each other as well as the town, but I believe they might have had an ability to coordinate their actions somehow... making them mortal enemies but also forced to work together. Seems someone got the upper hand.

[Diamondeye]

You do have points and you do also have flaws in your reasoning. Also, you're still not reading my posts closely enough - I am starting to think that you are ignoring the detail you are missing on purpose. It might sound enigmatic, but you are missing a possessive " 's".

I have come to the conclusion (and you are only strengthening at the moment) that you and Secura are the two villains, on two different teams (hence; no coordination of votes, no townie loss yet).

You're being a bit condescending at the moment - not that I do not realize that you obviously have more experience in these games than I, I had just not expected it to be the main selling point in your argument.

Maybe I'm not thinking before I post. Maybe it's because I'm certain I'm right. I have a tendancy of being obstinate about things when I know I'm right and people refuse to acknowledge it.

I'm not trying to convince you, ATPG, and I hope you know. Since yesterday's lynch, advocated and started by you, turned up innocent, I knew you were one of the villains. I just hope it dawns on someone else.

CCRunner: Make sure you vote the right way; it seems the entire game is on stake by your vote.

[Diamondeye]

If you're a common thief, then that confirms what I thought. Myself, Secura, CCRunner, Beskar, and Subotan are all basic thieves.

That makes Diamondeye and atheotes the odd men out.

Oh let me guess; to prove this, you "need me to hang".

Basically the same thing I'm asking for you, only obviously people will listen to ATPG but not to me.
"Great, we lynched Diamondeye! Why hasn't the game ended, I wonder..."
:headdesk:

Choose wisely.

[Beskar]

I am a ghost detective, because I got deaded, we are in a ghost council, with special abilities. Our investigation revealed this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Diamondeye is scum

I hope it helps the town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You do have points and you do also have flaws in your reasoning.

What are they?

Also, you're still not reading my posts closely enough - I am starting to think that you are ignoring the detail you are missing on purpose. It might sound enigmatic, but you are missing a possessive " 's".

You're not doing any favors for yourself by not being direct.

If you're innocent, this isn't the path forward. This leads to just more deadlock and just discredits yourself.

I have come to the conclusion (and you are only strengthening at the moment) that you and Secura are the two villains, on two different teams (hence; no coordination of votes, no townie loss yet).

....

Based, on, what, reasoning?

You're being a bit condescending at the moment

I'd argue I'm being persistent. You keep dodging me.

not that I do not realize that you obviously have more experience in these games than I, I had just not expected it to be the main selling point in your argument.

At what point did I say the following, or any variant thereof:

Follow me, because I have more experience than Diamondeye? I don't even know that I do. I don't know when you started these games.

IMO you're more experienced than to make the sorts of arguments and use the sorts of fallacies you're using. You're much more reasonable than this. What happened?

Maybe I'm not thinking before I post. Maybe it's because I'm certain I'm right. I have a tendancy of being obstinate about things when I know I'm right and people refuse to acknowledge it.

Okay, but you're not correct... so... when I'm trying to find out where the big flaw in your reasoning is, and why you are claiming you're sure/certain when you aren't, and you keep ducking me...

How am I supposed to react? These are not the words of the typical innocent player. You have a chance to fully explain yourself, calmly, rationally, and you're failing.

I could just walk away and let this lynch happen. Why am I still arguing, if I am guilty? I've already gotten what I want, apparently, so why am I still TRYING to reason with you or expose the fallacies in your thought process?

I don't tend to beat a dead horse. I'm still playing the game because I don't "know" you're guilty. I just really, really think you are based on your behavior and your inability to explain yourself, and your lack of claimed role.

That's not proof, and I never claimed that it was. It's very compelling, but it isn't the same as "knowing".

So when I have that, and I can explain that, but you have nothing and you say you "know", I pick at that, because I'd be derelict not to.

I'm not trying to convince you, ATPG, and I hope you know. Since yesterday's lynch, advocated and started by you, turned up innocent, I knew you were one of the villains. I just hope it dawns on someone else.

That's a misuse of the word "knew".

[Askthepizzaguy]

Everyone has claimed to be a basic thief. Which we know is false... someone here is the Guard.

That means anyone claiming to be a basic thief who is proved not to be one, is guilty.

I believe I claimed basic thief first, and DE was the last to claim it.

Both the "deduction" and the "know" aspects of DE's case are disproved by the fact he claimed basic thief. He can't actually know without a powerful role. He's declined to show how the publicly-known facts add up with 100% conclusiveness to my guilt, which he'd have to if he were innocent.

There are other problems with the story which I won't go into. But the bottom line is I said it was either him or Secura, and my reasons for voting him were based on the problems in his story, and I invited him to explain himself. He replied and declined to do so. Because his explaining of himself is what the game hinges on right now, the only reason not to do so is because he cannot.

If he cannot explain himself, and he can't say why he knows when he cannot know, even though if he were innocent it would be easy to do, that is the same as an admission of either guilt or apathy. He's obviously not apathetic or he wouldn't have argued for my death so vociferously.

I accept this as a concession of all points.

[Methos]

It was a long walk crossing that block openly, but you made it to the mill without any further incident. Attached to the mill was a tavern and it was here that you entered. You separated briefly to blend in, while you explored those around you, making sure you were in the clear. The hidden passage you would be entering was a perfect place for a trap and you weren’t about to enter it without being positive that no one had spotted you.

As thieves you knew perfectly well how to measure people and ATPG had quickly spotted someone he could use. It was a young punk, who felt he had something to prove. It didn’t take long either, about ten minutes before he looked like he was heading towards DE. ATPG slowly began heading towards DE, who obviously noticed, but the problem was, DE was paying too close attention to ATPG, CCRunner, and Secura and not to those around him. As ATPG reached DE he started to set his flask down and then quickly grabbed DE’s flask and tossed its contents at the punk. Before the punk could react, ATPG quickly picked up his own glass and stepped back looking at DE with feigned shock. The punk reacted as ATPG expected, though DE was just as quick. As the punk roared out his challenge and moved to attack, DE drew a hidden blade and gutted the boy, as he attempted to dash off. He hadn’t made it too far, before all hell broke loose. DE was good, but no scrapper and he knew it. He was doing his best to fight his way out of this mess when he felt the sharp point of a blade slide between his ribs. He glanced up to see the sparkling of ATPGs eyes as he turned and headed towards the hidden passage. The others moved towards the passage as well, knowing this was the perfect diversion. As you quietly slid out the back of the tavern, you heard someone call out from the crowd, “He’s one of the Master’s!”

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Diamondeye was one of The Master’s thieves!

You easily dropped back behind the tavern and to the back end of the mill, where access to the hidden passage was. It would have been extremely difficult to find, if you all hadn’t already known where to look. Many of you eyed ATPG warily, remembering how it had been him that had killed both Subotan and Diamondeye. Though you didn’t trust him and feared him at your back, you had to press forward.

The passage was an old one and it appeared to have once been a sewer, though it hadn’t been used in many, many decades. It was very tight and restrictive, yet even so, you each maintained a good distance from each other. As you came to the end of the passage, you could see what looked like an iron door ahead of you. Moving up to it, CCRunner put his ear to the door and then indicated he didn’t hear anything on the other side. Secura silently opened the door, giving each of the vision of a very thick door, with what appeared to be a false wall on the doors opposite side. As Secura stepped through the door he jerked to a stop and both CCRunner and ATPG could see every nerve in his body tense. Both became very still as they watched Secura’s hand slide silently towards his ankle. It was plan from his body language that someone had come upon them and Secura’s body language indicated he was preparing to attack. He disappeared briefly before they heard the distinctive thud of a body striking the floor.

CCRunner and ATPG exited the hidden passage and in the dim light they could see the body of a man near Secura and stairs on the other side of him. The thieves quickly moved to the stairs and began to ascend, when they heard movement from behind them. CC and ATPG quickly glanced behind them only to see the “dead body” fling something towards them. As the thieves attempted to protect themselves from what looked like f flash bag they felt the blast strike them full force. It didn’t matter that they were disoriented, they did everything they could to flee from the area, but too many things were happening at once. The man lying on the floor was waving his hands around oddly and you could see him lips moving. There was a strange blue light emanating from his fingers and you quickly realized he was a wizard. You could also feel the vibrations in the floor of the stairs and you knew many men would rushing down the stairs. The thing you noticed most was Secura as he kicked ATPG in the side of the knee while his left hand pulled an emblem out of his jacket that indicated he was an official member of the investigative branch of the city guard. CCRunner turned and rushed back towards the wizard knowing it was his only chance, but he was too late as the lightening crackled from the wizards hands, striking CCRunner in the chest. With a busted knee, ATPG began tumbling down the stairs, where he came to a rest on the charred remains of CCRunner.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

CCRunner and ATPG were common thieves and have been captured by the City Guard!

Secura is a cop with the city guard!l

Congratulations to Secura, for the win!

Final Talley:
Diamondeye: ATPG, Secura
ATPG: DE

The Master's Thief - Diamondeye

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VC: Mafia
The Master not only knows of this job, but has known about it long enough to have you placed on the team. Your job is simple, you are to cause this job to fail. You've been assigned a partner, who oddly enough is one of the local constables. The Master has "invited" him to join as a political move, though that doesn't mean you have to protect him. You do not know who it is, but are able to secretly communicate with him. So long as he is alive, the two of you must come to an agreement in order to complete your kill. If you do not, then no kill will happen during that phase.
#
Goals:
-Survive
-Kill the cop
-Recover the majority of the gold

Quicktopic for the mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/WZvknhDKDkUJ7

#
The Cop - Secura

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VC: Mafia
You've been investigating the ring leader of this group for a long time, too long according to your police chief. Most of the higher ups have begun thinking of you as a sore spot among the force, so when the Master made the offer of placing a policeman within the team of thieves, you were their first choice. It's a win/win option for them. If you fail, they're rid of you. If you succeed, then they look good. For you though, its an extremely dangerous position. You realize that your only option is to capture or kill the Master's thief and recover the stolen gold. Interestingly enough, the very thief who you wish to capture/kill is also your teammate. The Master has arranged a way for the two of you to secretly communicate without realizing who the other is. The two of you must come to an agreement on who to kill during the night phase. If you don't agree, then there will be no kill. If something happens to him, then the choice is entirely yours.
#
Goals:
-Survive
-Kill the Master's Thief
-Recover the majority of the gold
#
Quicktopic for the mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/WZvknhDKDkUJ7

The Ring Leader - atheotes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VC: Innocent
Your boss doesn't trust the thieves he hired, so he's placed you within the group to make sure they don't steal his profits. So long as your alive, every surviving thief gets a cut of 10% and whatever is left, goes to your boss. You don't mind the occasional loss of some thieves, but neither do you wish to screw up this job. You've come to realize this is a test from your boss.

Ability: You were the one who hired these thieves, so every night phase you can secretly investigate one thief and determine if it is the thief you hired, or an impostor.
#
Goals:
-Survive
-Kill the Mafia (1 pt for each one)

#
Thieves - ATPG, CCRunner, Beskar, Subotan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

VC: Innocent
You’ve been considering the 10% take you’re getting and how no matter if one of you is killed or captured, your take still stays at 10%. You realize that the only way the boss of this job could maintain such control is if he had one of his own on the job. The boss will have his own worries about the Master coming after him, so you should be able to easily disappear with the loot.

Goals:
-Survive
-Remove the Ringleader
-Remove the Master’s minions

Feel free to check out the quick topic that the mafia used. Also, being that this was my first game, can you all please indicate what you thought about it? Post both the positives and negatives and don’t hesitate to say what you didn’t like. I was very curious if by making the mafia unaware of each other I was weakening them, but it turned out to make the game very interesting.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well I figured it was Diamondeye or Secura. I also figured it was too late for an innocent victory if there were two baddies remaining. We lost when we lynched Subotan... the correct move was either to lynch Secura, which I was initially going for... or No Lynch, it seems.

Sigh... I gave it my best.

We did good though, we got one of them.

I do think that a game with 2 mafia, the ability to murder, and starting on a night phase is near-impossible for the town because the first lynch is the final lynch. That's a bit unfair in terms of difficulty. Then the correct move is No Lynch... and even then you'd have to line up all three townies, correctly, against one of the remaining scums. That's very hard to get everyone to agree on.

I rate the game setup as interesting but very, very difficult.

In fact this is a game where both lynches have to be correct, and there's only two lynches. There isn't a more difficult game setup possible.




Congratulations Secura, I consider it a personal failure that I let you live when I could have had you.

Congratulations Diamondeye, though you know if there were one more townie, I would have gotten you and your little partner too.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Feel free to check out the quick topic that the mafia used. Also, being that this was my first game, can you all please indicate what you thought about it? Post both the positives and negatives and don’t hesitate to say what you didn’t like. I was very curious if by making the mafia unaware of each other I was weakening them, but it turned out to make the game very interesting.

For game balance:

I've had 7-player mini games where the two scums did not know each other and could not murder, and they still won. And the game started on a day phase, so the townies got the first shot.

That's a far more difficult set-up but overall it was very balanced.

That's the only criticism I have, is that it was very easy for the mafia. Not meant to be "whine... I lost" kind of criticism, in a very objective 3 distinct extra advantages in this game over a more balanced game.

If it was possible to win, then it was a fair game. I'll correct myself there. Just very hard.

[Methos]

The mafia were working against each other, so I hoped that would weaken them since they'd be trying to locate each other and kill the other one off. At the same time by not knowing each other, I realized that figureing out who the second mafia was would be a lot more difficult, hence the inclusion of an investigator. The problem was, the first night atheotes chose to investigate Beskar, who was also killed. The second night atheotes chose to investigate ATPG, but was killed instaed. Unfortunately the investigator never had a chance to benefit the innocent thieves.

I realize now that starting on a night phase is a bad thing for a seven man game, but that's part of the learning experience. I hope you all still enjoyed it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The mafia were working against each other, so I hoped that would weaken them since they'd be trying to locate each other and kill the other one off.

That makes sense, however if they don't immediately try to kill each other, it's game over for the innocents anyway. It's a two-day game. If they don't kill each other day one, it's over after day two. So it's not much of a handicap.

At the same time by not knowing each other, I realized that figureing out who the second mafia was would be a lot more difficult, hence the inclusion of an investigator.

I agree, that's necessary for fairness. The difficulty is if the investigator, which basically the entire innocent team requires in order to win... if they investigate incorrectly or die, innocents basically lose.

So the onus is on the mafia to win the game outright, not really for the innocents to guess correctly. And the game starts with a night phase... that's harsh (IMHO)

I realize now that starting on a night phase is a bad thing for a seven man game, but that's part of the learning experience. I hope you all still enjoyed it.

Oh indeed. We might have lost but I'll be darned if we didn't give it everything we had, and come within a hair of victory.

[Secura]

I really loved this game, in all honesty. Thought I'd talk you through my thoughts throughout;

On the first night, the Master Thief requested we kill Beskar. I told him that I'd prefer a capture, which he went along with, and that was that. I will admit I felt somewhat guilty and revealed my identity as the Cop to Beskar, and he essentially said he suspected Subotan of being the advocate for his arrest. That was my reasoning for the first night, when I honestly suspected noone.

On the first day phase, the Thief asked me to vote for Pizza, and when Subotan popped up and did just that, it made me even more suspicious; until Subotan turned out to be a civilian, whereby I immediately thought that Pizza was the Thief, the request to nominate himself a mere ploy for him to remove the Cop from the game early.

On the second night, the Thief wanted to kill atheotes. To test the waters, I said "what about Pizza?", but the Thief was actually fine with this. Not long before Methos' took our decision in, I changed my mind again to test the waters further; I suggested Diamondeye for the lynch, which the Thief was adamantly against, and basically said "Pizza or atheotes?". Gotcha, was the general thought for me at the time.

I chose to agree and arrest atheotes (murder is so morally reprehensible, no?) because I felt that Pizza's arguments would be invaluable should the Thief try to front me out. The game went into day phase where it turns out atheotes was the Ring Leader... I became somewhat confused, suspected that might mean he was the Thief I had to make decisions with, and essentially was back to Square One with no idea what to do.

In the end, it was Diamondeye's arguments that reaffirmed my belief in his real identity, and I voted to remove the murdering brigand. It was then clear to me that I would be able to bring the other thieves to justice and win the game. Know that I kept everyone alive by arresting them though, rather than killing you all as my 'partner' wished!

Honestly, I feel the victory should've gone to Diamondeye and Pizza just for their debate. If you seriously want a seven-man game to have alot of activity, get these two hotheads together!

As for the quality of the game, I liked the fact that the two 'mafia' factions were forced to work together, and I was constantly scratching my head as to who the Thief was; I suspected half the game, essentially. I never actually suspected there was an investigator, and it's unfortunate for the town that he didn't get the identity of one of the pair before his death.

Unfortunately, the game got to a point where the town couldn't win; it was a choice of the Cop arresting everyone and me winning, or the Thief killing everyone and Diamondeye winning.

[Secura]

I just noticed something; the thieves had to remove the Ring Leader from the game too. While this is self-explanitory in terms of narrative (he's the one regulating the small cut they're getting), it essentially means the town has to lynch him last or they would lose; they need him out of the game, but they heavily rely on his investigation results too. He was never going to reveal his role to anyone if he felt he would be lynched for being the Ring Leader.

Without him, there's no way of finding out the real threat; the Cop who wants to arrest the thieves or the Thief who wants to murder them all.

[Diamondeye]

I loved the game setup, Methos! It was extremely interesting imho, if a bit hard on the innocents, as ATPG suggests.

I must say, early on I was quite sure that ATPG was "The Cop" because he seemed to avoid the kill of him at nights. Also, arresting people instead of killing them would be typical of ATPG.

However, my last day talk with ATPG revealed to me that he was indeed a common thief (but also made it impossible for me to redirect his vote to Secura, who I realized was the Cop by then, since I acted scummy as ).

The reason I picked this approach to the last day was that my PM indicates "mafia" victory, which I take is the same as Secura's PM does. So I figured I'd win even if I died (albeit a less impressive win than if the cop died or if I survived).

Methos, I know this game was hard on the innocents but you should consider providing the mafia with a brief summary of the common thief goals. It was impossible to guess the Ringleader one.

[Beskar]

There were a few things needed to do for another game.

- Balancing (It is impossible for the common-thief to win.)
- Layout and Game Organisation (There was no start-times, end-times, etc)

Also, I just realised, didn't the common thieves just win the game? Your victory conditions were "Get Master's Minion" and "Get Ringleader", thus officially, both ATPG and CCRunner at least completed their victory conditions since the Cop doesn't come either of these two headings.

The write-ups themselves were good though.

[Methos]

I just noticed something; the thieves had to remove the Ring Leader from the game too. While this is self-explanitory in terms of narrative (he's the one regulating the small cut they're getting), it essentially means the town has to lynch him last or they would lose;

Yeah, I added this to keep everyone against each other. I agree that it unbalanced things.

Methos, I know this game was hard on the innocents but you should consider providing the mafia with a brief summary of the common thief goals. It was impossible to guess the Ringleader one.

Also, I just realised, didn't the common thieves just win the game? Your victory conditions were "Get Master's Minion" and "Get Ringleader", thus officially, both ATPG and CCRunner at least completed their victory conditions since the Cop doesn't come either of these two headings.

My original intent was to use a point system for victory. Each player received one point for achieving one of their goals. I had decided that to earn the point for removing someone then the player must have been one of the ones who voted for that individual. I kept this to myself, for fear of everyone piling on someone just to get the point. As the game progressed I realized it wouldn't work out as well as I thought. I had given the most possible points to be earned to the common thieves, since they had the ability to earn a possible four points and the roles could only earn up to three. Though Secura did complete all of his goals, thereby earning three points, whereas the next closest would have been DE and ATPG he both earned 1 point.

This game has given me a lot to think about and I look forward to someday doing another one.

- Layout and Game Organisation (There was no start-times, end-times, etc)

Are you talking about real time, as in the updates, or do you mean in-game there wasn't enough information? At first I wanted to keep it secretive, more rogue-ish, but I realize all that did was keep people from wanting to sign up.

[Secura]

Are you talking about real time, as in the updates, or do you mean in-game there wasn't enough information? At first I wanted to keep it secretive, more rogue-ish, but I realize all that did was keep people from wanting to sign up.

Yup, he means the updates... some phases were long, some short etc. It didn't really bother me too much, as it meant a constant change of pace as the game picked up and slowed down... but some people are a stickler for regularity. :3

I know what that's like, because I'm really antsy about spelling and grammar... I recheck and edit my posts to make sure I'm utlising the English language properly and not like a chav. >.<

[Methos]

I had intended to start the game on the Monday following the opening of my sign up thread, as during the week its much easier for me to maintain some regularity. The weekends are often difficult due to family stuff. It also didn't help that it was a three day weekend for us (my wife and I both had Monday off) and it was Valentine's. My apologies for that.

[Secura]

I hope you spoiled her! ^_^

[Methos]

I hope you spoiled her! ^_^

Lol! As much as I was able to with a soon to be three year old. It's difficult to spoil my wife when I'm spending so much time spoiling my daughter. Correction, when were both spoiling her.

[atheotes]

good game Secura.
to be honest, i never thought there would be 2 mafia and never thought removing me would be a victory condition for the town.
If i had investigated the mafia, i would have revealed myself as the ring leader to explain my investigation ability. then i would be in danger of getting killed at night or lynched during the day
it was an interesting game Methos...probably a little tough on the town (and very tough on me )

[Secura]

Thank you, you honour me. :3

Personally, I think that the town would have had a better chance had your role actually been pro-town; while your investigations were of use to them, they needed to lynch you too to win. Arguably, you had the hardest role of all.

But... what is it with everyone's Beskar-obsession? The Thief immediately suggested Beskar as the first night kill, you investigated him first... is he always scum or something? Seems everyone wanted rid straight away! xD

[Askthepizzaguy]

I hope you spoiled her! ^_^

As for me, since no one asked... :lol:

I got my Valentine a large heart-shaped box of the nice assorted chocolates, a bag of valentines-day themed milky way, twix, snickers, etc assorted chocolates, the red, pink, and white peanut M&M's which are her favorites, a cute little stuffed doggie, a box of marshamallow lover's instant cocoa, a valentines' day card, and I brought her to Applebee's and spent 40 dollars getting her a 12 oz steak, mozzarella stick appetizers, salad, and a fruity alcoholic drink.

I also got her a ton of kisses and hugs and lovins.

[Secura]

As for me, since no one asked... :lol:

This is turning into romance corner now! o_o

I am glad that you both enjoyed your weekend, explains why things were a little quiet on Sunday! :3

[Diamondeye]

Thank you, you honour me. :3

Personally, I think that the town would have had a better chance had your role actually been pro-town; while your investigations were of use to them, they needed to lynch you too to win. Arguably, you had the hardest role of all.

But... what is it with everyone's Beskar-obsession? The Thief immediately suggested Beskar as the first night kill, you investigated him first... is he always scum or something? Seems everyone wanted rid straight away! xD

Actually the reason I suggested Beskar was because he was at the bottom of the list (I was at teh top), that way we could just kill from bottom and up...

[Beskar]

But... what is it with everyone's Beskar-obsession? The Thief immediately suggested Beskar as the first night kill, you investigated him first... is he always scum or something? Seems everyone wanted rid straight away! xD

It is why I can never win as a Mafia. I get investigated asap.

[atheotes]

It is why I can never win as a Mafia. I get investigated asap.

I wanted to find your true role before you went "Vote: Atheates - he is always the mafia"

[Beskar]

I wanted to find your true role before you went "Vote: Atheates - he is always the mafia"

It is hilarious that you spelled your own name wrong.

[Secura]

And with a capital letter too!

What Pever is the world coming to?