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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR View Post
    Also called Hoyle's fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoyle%27s_fallacy


    He was not a biologist was he? Would he have had same opinion today, with 429 extrasolar planets discovered so far?





    CBR
    No but mathematical odd are relied upon to predict much of what we know.

    However unlikely mathematically, life seems to go out of its way to happen.

    I assume you have some better more reasonable explanation?


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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    No but mathematical odd are relied upon to predict much of what we know.

    However unlikely mathematically, life seems to go out of its way to happen.

    I assume you have some better more reasonable explanation?
    We do not even know for sure how life on Earth came about, so which probabilities do you speak of?
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    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    We do not even know for sure how life on Earth came about, so which probabilities do you speak of?

    The mathematical probabilities of carbon forming a strand of DNA. That is only slightly harder than forming a protein chain for something like a virus.

    Don’t get me wrong. I am not trying to prove the existence of a God sitting on a throne in some heaven.

    There would just seem to be some order or consciousness holding the universe together. If not, then why does observation and intent effect partial behavior?


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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Sometime I think we limit the possibilities of other life-forms by sticking to the earth-standard carbon based model. I think it's possible that on another planet with a different chemical makeup, life-forms may use another element as it's base, with a completely different set of chemical reaction to function as life.
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    Shaidar Haran Senior Member SAM Site Champion Myrddraal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Data points of known life is 1. Thus it's impossible to draw any mathematical conclusions, since some of the starting defintions are unknown.
    I couldn't agree more. It's impossible to draw mathematical conclusions. We can however theorise about what is necessary for life to come into existence, and try to get a rough idea of the probability of each of those stages completing successfully. RND/DNA universe and all that. The bit I struggle with is how either of those two, the RNA universe of the DNA universe, could ever spontaneously come into existence. I'm not saying they couldn't, it just boggles the mind.

    As for the creator question, isn't it a little bit redundant? If God created the universe, then he created the laws of physics. If God created the universe, then he created those mighty forces that brought together dust clouds into stars and planets. If God created the universe, perhaps he designed those laws of physics, the distributions of mass in the universe, everything we know, precisely so that it would form life?

    An analogy (a poor one, but hopefully it illustrates the point):
    Is creation is like a river carving a valley, simply a product of forces of nature?
    Is creation God making the river source, which then goes on to carve a valley?
    Is creation God making the river source & the rock and earth so that a valley would be carved?

    Personally I believe that if the ultimate creator of the universe created everything then saying "God didn't make earth, gravity did" is a self contradiction.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Myrddraal View Post
    I couldn't agree more. It's impossible to draw mathematical conclusions. We can however theorise about what is necessary for life to come into existence, and try to get a rough idea of the probability of each of those stages completing successfully. RND/DNA universe and all that. The bit I struggle with is how either of those two, the RNA universe of the DNA universe, could ever spontaneously come into existence. I'm not saying they couldn't, it just boggles the mind.
    The irony is that multicelluar life is mindboggingly hard (probably harder than creating life itself, based on the current insufficient data) yet for us it doesn't seem that hard to cooperate.
    Also remember that modern life has had billions of years to develop to the current life forms. Any primitive cell structure would not survive until today, or survive for long if created today.

    Drone, the significant advantage coal have is that it can easily bind to 4 different atoms and also easily form double bonds or higher. Silica for example doesn't form double bonds as easy. So while non-carbon life cannot be ruled out, carbon is definitly the most flexible molecule when it comes to create chains and advanced molecules.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Somewhere around 13 or 14 billion years ago our universe was made or made it self that much we do know or at least think we know. So thats a fair length of time for complex elements and even more complex lifeforms.

    I just dug up some old science books these figures coulds be out of date but the figures quoted are that our solar system by mass terms is made of around

    70.13% Hydrogen
    27.87% Helium
    0.91% Oxygen

    Straight away water can be formed which is a building block of our lifecycle water has some very important features.

    1 As a liquid it can protect it from destructive ultraviolet radiation.
    2 Waters ability to exist as both a gas, solid and a liquid allow it to spread all over the planet.
    3 The ability of ice to float also means our oceans don't freeze solid very important.

    Taking undersea vents and solar energy into account and a 4.5 billion year old earth its plenty time for me to be here typing on a computer.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    The mathematical probabilities of carbon forming a strand of DNA. That is only slightly harder than forming a protein chain for something like a virus.
    With so much unkown, I don't get how anyone could produce such probabilities - as long as being reliable is a goal in itself. I can indeed never remember to have read that the "probability of life arising" was small and that this is a problem for the possibility of life elsewhere.


    If not, then why does observation and intent effect partial behavior?
    Sorry?
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    If not, then why does observation and intent effect partial behavior?
    Quantam theory explains most of that but it is beyond my understanding
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    One of the Undutchables Member The Stranger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    it's beyond everyones understanding...

    We do not sow.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stranger View Post
    it's beyond everyones understanding...
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  12. #12
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    No but mathematical odd are relied upon to predict much of what we know.
    And Hoyle seems to have been off when it comes to the odds. Even if we assume the mathematical odds seemed right at the time of his statement, things have changed as we know more now so the odds are different.

    I assume you have some better more reasonable explanation?
    Explanation for what? I cannot calculate the "right" odds but what I do know is we don't know much since we have not visited other systems not have powerful enough telescopes to detect signs of life. We have not even enough information to truly rule out life on other planets in our own solar system. In other words it is going to involve a whole lot of speculation to claim the chances of life are small.

    I don't see the point in focusing too much on statements made by dead scientists that also seems to have involved elements that were outside their own field.

    If we can find the building blocks of life in space then maybe life is not so unlikely?


    CBR

  13. #13
    Philologist Senior Member ajaxfetish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Eternal Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherking View Post
    No but mathematical odd are relied upon to predict much of what we know.
    And the odds here are . . . let's see, we have life on this earth, so that's one . . . don't know whether there's life elsewhere yet, don't know how many planets there are in the universe.

    Hmm . . . so we get ≥1/x

    I'm not sure we can do much with those odds.

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