Charlie Wilson 1933-2010

[Beskar]

You will never win, Aemilius Paulus. The USSR are teh evil 'communist' atheist overlords which was trying to rule the world while America is the land of the free, rightous, god-fearing heroes of the world.

[Aemilius Paulus]

You will never win, Aemilius Paulus. The USSR are teh evil 'communist' atheist overlords which was trying to rule the world while America is the land of the free, rightous, god-fearing heroes of the world.

I know right? Even after showing how much nasty it seems when someone welcomes the US casualties, Centurion1 was still talking of how Soviet troop deaths were just expendable and necessary losses, seeing nothing wrong with accepting their loss while recoiling at the exact same reaction from me (which I staged)... What makes this all the more effed-up is the fact that no-one in the USSR, out of the common folk, wanted the war with Afghanistan. Really, there were no such thing as war hawks. The Party did it on its own, and dragged the Soviet populace into something they did not want - or even know of.

In contrast, the American public and the democratically elected representatives went into the war cheering, with near-total support. The USSR, instead, went in because of a few politicians acting out of their own twisted interests. The people had no choice. Americans did, however. Americans, also, can always get out - should enough support be gathered. Citizens of USSR did not have the same luxury.



The Soviet soldiers, also, were all drafted, not volunteers such as in the case of the US Armed Forces in Iraq or Afghanistan. When you sign up for the Armed Forces, you know you risk, nay, you have the duty to go and defend the interests of your state, no matter what your personal opinion on it is. US soldiers had a choice. Soviet ones did not. It is regrettable when a US soldier dies, but it was that man's (or woman's) choice, and on top of it, the choice of the general populace of the country. Not so with the Red Army and USSR.

Some may have wanted the war and the action, at least in the beginning, but that was only some. Most do not want a war - and no sane person wants a war once they had experienced it firsthand. But as I said, the Soviets did not have a choice. Big difference, on a personal level. But of course, why care about the facts when they get in your way? Much easier to ignore them... It is easy to see USSR as a one big commie 'evil-empire'. But that is not the truth. There was a world of difference between the top party officials and the other 99.9999% of the populace.

[Centurion1]

Sigh, I want to apologize about my earlier comment regarding proxy wars, etc. Crass and inexcusable. AP was right in tearing me apart as he did. It was poorly written and was obviously written by someone who did not think before he, uh, typed.

Centurion

[Beskar]

In contrast, the American public and the democratically elected representatives went into the war cheering, with near-total support. The USSR, instead, went in because of a few politicians acting out of their own twisted interests. The people had no choice. Americans did, however. Americans, also, can always get out - should enough support be gathered. Citizens of USSR did not have the same luxury.

We never had the same choice either. Polls were showing 60-80% support against the war. However, being America's protectorate and preserving this "special relationship", we got forced into it.

Though, France who spoke out against the war, ended up emargo'd (though I think this might be Iraq) and America changed the name of 'french fries' to 'freedom fries', etc. I think the French were really hurt over that move.

[Centurion1]

We never embargoed france don't be ridiculous. (at least i'm pretty sure not since 1807). though we did call french fries freedom fries for awhile.

[The Wizard]

Translation: I wanted to give the Ruskies a kick in the teeth and I would rather overlook the fact that largely innocent people were killed through my actions (srsly, very few wanted to get drafted for the Afghan War).

What a load of hokey. Why is Charlie Wilson to blame for the Soviet state's draft policy (and decision to invade Afghanistan)? Seems like you should aim your arrows at your own Party, comrade...

So you are admitting USSR had the right to help the North Vietnam? I would take them before the Mujahideen, and even now we can see the result of a communist Vietnam vs Taleban Aghanistan.

You mean the communist Vietnam which economically imploded right after the fall of Saigon and which suffered a famine due to efforts at collectivization? That one? Only when Hanoi decided ideological purity wasn't worth starving for, and they became your average nationalistic capitalist dictatorship did Vietnam take off. The only difference between North Vietnam and Afghanistan was that the former came out of their war under one central leadership... anything but that can be said of A-stan.

Moreover, the Taliban are not the mujahideen, on the contrary. The Taliban formed to fight the mujahideen (and to install a regime friendly to Islamabad).

And? A right does not make another wrong right, and I seriously doubt he was advocating the aid from altruistic reasons. If he was worth his salt, then he could have possibly recognised the danger of a devastated Afghanistan in the hands of radical Muslims...

... Which was my point exactly. Thank you for agreeing with me. Wilson may or may not have begun advocating helping the mujahideen for altruistic reasons, but he certainly did end up doing so.

When did I say that I liked Soviet technocrats? Does the existence of greater evils absolve a smaller evil and shield him from criticism? This thread, IIRC, was about Mr. Wilson, and not the Soviet tecnocrats/NVA...

You're blaming entirely unrelated things on Charlie Wilson here, pal. In your book, the fact that Russian adolescents got sent into the mountains of Afghanistan is Charlie Wilson's fault, not the fault of the Soviet Union... a particularly zany example of mistaking cause for effect

I mean, take this entire post of yours:

[...]

Apparently, because the Soviet dictators took the Soviet populace unwillingly into a war, and Americans have a choice, America is evil. Wait... what? Someone skipped a few steps here (and ended up in a totally different place as a result). Just because your empire was evil doesn't mean what the U.S. did in Afghanistan during the eighties was as well, bud.

I mean, if you want to argue the U.S. was as evil as the USSR there are a gazillion arguments to use, as Eurolefties prove on a daily basis. Instead, you choose the fact that the USSR was a tyranny and America a democracy. I mean, come on.

You will never win, Aemilius Paulus. The USSR are teh evil 'communist' atheist overlords which was trying to rule the world while America is the land of the free, rightous, god-fearing heroes of the world.

You betcha. God Bless America <o

[Strike For The South]

Charlie Wilson was one of the few proponets of helping the Afghans after the war. He had the foresight to realize what would happen, alas no one listened to him.

It is not fault of Wilsons that the USSR decided to invade or how they choose there soliders.

It is also not my intention to piss on the dead, however Wilson made a brilliant move on the cold war chess board and served the people of East Texas for 20 years much better than most.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Since you (collectively speaking) cannot seem to abide by our custom of waiting for the funereal honors to be rendered, I will assist you all in this.

Strike, please PM me as a reminder to open this on the 24th.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Honors have been rendered. NOW you may proceed with your rendering of his memory if you so desire.

"Good Time" Charlie, ye shall be missed. For good or for ill, you had style!

[Aemilius Paulus]

Ah, yes, thank you, SM. Too bad my initial disgust at the fella died out. And plus, if he is a Christian, which he seemed to be, and if God does indeed exist, as so many here insist, then he is in Hell. What more could I ask? In fact, poor lad, he does not deserve that, not even close. No one deserves eternal damnation, not even people the lies of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Chinggis Han, etc...


But seriously, in a hot tub with two nakked hookers, snorting coke powder from the long red nails of the two women, dressed in only the high heels? EPIC WIN...

Yah, I am not even sure how to react...

[Centurion1]

But seriously, in a hot tub with two nakked hookers, snorting coke powder from the long red nails of the two women, dressed in only the high heels? EPIC WIN...

Yah, I am not even sure how to react...

and i had to watch that movie with my parents.

[Louis VI the Fat]

a hot tub with two nakked hookers, snorting coke powder from the long red nails of the two women, dressed in only the high heels

?


!

[Aemilius Paulus]

and i had to watch that movie with my parents.

Bah, you know nothing. My Dad likes silly comedies to take the stress of his lawyer-work, and one day he brought the 40-Year Old Virgin. How awkward is that?? I am pretty sure it was the unrated edition too... Good thing I had an excuse to turn down his insistence that we watch it together by pointing out that I almost never watch anything that came out in the past 30 years. *whew*

[Centurion1]

Bah, you know nothing. My Dad likes silly comedies to take the stress of his lawyer-work, and one day he brought the 40-Year Old Virgin. How awkward is that?? I am pretty sure it was the unrated edition too... Good thing I had an excuse to turn down his insistence that we watch it together by pointing out that I almost never watch anything that came out in the past 30 years. *whew*

The fact that your lawyer father finds those movies more enjoyable than his 17 year old son speaks volumes about you.

i watched funny people in theaters with my mother and 40 year old virgin really wasnt that bad.