the most logical NapoleonTW review so far

[caravel]

Maybe tempered by the knowledge that this is the chap who didn't get a job with CA and threw his dummy out of the pram about it.

Hello,

Learn the facts first. The "chap" is one of the most respected and capable modders the community has produced. CA have produced sub standard games since the release of RTW v1.0. It is the efforts of the modding community that has turned these games around and made them half decent.

And there are a few who love to hate CA so much they invent problems or blow out of proportion everything they deem a bug or historical mistake.

Nonsense and a gross generalisation. Those criticising CA's work are not motivated by simple hatred - that is in fact slander. The issue is the decline in quality of CA's games over the last few years. Games like TW will attract criticism, both positive and negative. This is being marketed as an historical wargame - expect criticism.

The review smacks of bitterness. And just goes to show once more that the following quote is true

Perhaps you're confusing bitterness over the state of "the game" with the supposed "bitterness" that you know nothing of and are therefor not qualified to comment on?

He said he got a copy from a friend, Fishy.

As for the rest of his review, he's approaching it from an absolutist point of view. He's measuring it up against a hypothetical perfect game while others are comparing it ETW and others to other games.

No need to to attack the fellow's argument with such insinuations is there?

He approaches it from the best point of view. Simply comparing the game with another game makes for a flawed review. This is a review by an expert modder with a lot of experience and should be taken as such. A comparison of the game "as is" compared with the hypothetical capabilities of the engine is a better type of review, as a comparison of RTW and RTR/EB is also a comparison worth reading.

I'd be willing to take a small risk and venture that what he reviewed isn't necessarily the same as what paying customers receive. I may be wrong in this, or I may not.

Ah, so you distribute special versions to the reviewers? Perhaps that accounts discrepencies between reviews and end user experience with ETW eh...?

[edyzmedieval]

Hello,

Perhaps you're confusing bitterness over the state of "the game" with the supposed "bitterness" that you know nothing of and are therefor not qualified to comment on?

I spilled my drink over my keyboard in laughter and disgust at the same time. That's enough for a reply to your "qualifications".

[Madoushi]

Nonsense and a gross generalisation. Those criticising CA's work are not motivated by simple hatred - that is in fact slander. The issue is the decline in quality of CA's games over the last few years. Games like TW will attract criticism, both positive and negative. This is being marketed as an historical wargame - expect criticism.

Honestly, I've found each TW from STW to MII has been better than the last, in my opinion.

My main qualm with Rome was simply the hostile and untrustworthy campaign AI combined with the relative lack of flexibility in diplomacy, but I still enjoyed it thoroughly after MTW, even as I got wiped out in game after game, and I was just as impressed by MII when I first played it.

They all have flaws, and the modding community has done much to fix them, but there's really no other game like a TW game.

[Fisherking]

Nonsense and a gross generalisation. Those criticising CA's work are not motivated by simple hatred - that is in fact slander. The issue is the decline in quality of CA's games over the last few years. Games like TW will attract criticism, both positive and negative. This is being marketed as an historical wargame - expect criticism.

And what part of “And there are a few” makes it a gross generalization?

I was speaking of a small percentage who either never like anything or rant on about some perceived flaw that tends to mystify most of us. Frankly I even wonder if they know more about the game than the title.

That was not directed at anyone but it seems to have struck a nerve with you.

Why so?

[caravel]

I spilled my drink over my keyboard in laughter and disgust at the same time. That's enough for a reply to your "qualifications".

So in your opinion the gentleman is simply "bitter" because he didn't get a position with CA and that's where all this has come from? I take it you know the full facts and have inside information from CA on this? Or perhaps, just perhaps your opinion is based on idle rumour and gossip...? Dispense with the formalities and speak your mind - preferably to the man himself. (terrible waste of a drink, though glad you found it somewhat entertaining all the same).

And what part of “And there are a few” makes it a gross generalization?

I was speaking of a small percentage who either never like anything or rant on about some perceived flaw that tends to mystify most of us. Frankly I even wonder if they know more about the game than the title.

That was not directed at anyone but it seems to have struck a nerve with you.

Why so?

A "small percentage" eh? Do you have the facts and figures to back up your statement - or did you dream up this "small percentage" out of thin air? In fact please do name these individuals so that they can come forward and defend their positions. Who are they?

Let me explain it to you in simple English: Your statement is in fact a typcast of a supposed small number of people that have only ever wanted to see the game franchise (TW) improve.

The supposed "CA hate" is your unimportant opinion and is simply your take on all of this. You dismiss those that don't like the game as a "small minority", that's a in fact a generalisation of this group of people - and an uninformed one at that. You like the game, carry on I don't care either way. The fact remains, that for those of us that started playing STW in 2000, the TW franchise has gotten worse. Bugs, crap AI, pathetic diplomacy and almost non existent MP support have plagued the series. The MP community that existed at the time of STW/MTW is dead and gone. And now finally, the one thing that salvaged these games modding is also under attack. This company have proven that they simply don't want modding. When will you get that? This is not about CA hate, but that the company has been turning out crap for the last few years.

[edyzmedieval]

So in your opinion the gentleman is simply "bitter" because he didn't get a position with CA and that's where all this has come from? I take it you know the full facts and have inside information from CA on this? Or perhaps, just perhaps your opinion is based on idle rumour and gossip...? Dispense with the formalities and speak your mind - preferably to the man himself. (terrible waste of a drink, though glad you found it somewhat entertaining all the same).

Thanks for instigating me to "revolt" but I've handled much worse trolls in my life.

What idle rumour and gossip? What in the world are you talking about? I've played all TW games from their release day (and I'm not exxagerating over here), and all I can say is that Darth's review is too bitter regarding the whole package. I'm not saying he's wrong, on the contrary, he's right on many points and I give him that, but calling NTW crap is too much of an overstatement. From my part, I enjoyed ETW (ok, I quit the first day, reinstalled after 1.5, so I'm only talking about 1.5 which is what is was supposed to be) and I enjoy NTW as well, seeing it as it is a much better variant of ETW.

And one last thing - no sane person will compare STW/MTW with ETW/NTW. They are miles apart when it comes to AI, campaign planning and all of that.
And I agree with the modding bit, they want us out of it, but out of all of this, M2TW is the best platform for modding.

A "small percentage" eh? Do you have the facts and figures to back up your statement - or did you dream up this "small percentage" out of thin air? In fact please do name these individuals so that they can come forward and defend their positions. Who are they?

What?!?! We are not here in a court, to hear arguments based on facts and people defending their positions. What kind of a reply is this? Pathetic.

[caravel]

There are and always were people who make things up. They like discontent.

Setting aside whether there actually are such people for now, my point is that you appear to be insininuating that the gentleman in question is one such individual?

What idle rumour and gossip? What in the world are you talking about? I've played all TW games from their release day (and I'm not exxagerating over here), and all I can say is that Darth's review is too bitter regarding the whole package. I'm not saying he's wrong, on the contrary, he's right on many points and I give him that, but calling NTW crap is too much of an overstatement. From my part, I enjoyed ETW (ok, I quit the first day, reinstalled after 1.5, so I'm only talking about 1.5 which is what is was supposed to be) and I enjoy NTW as well, seeing it as it is a much better variant of ETW.

We seem to be at crossed purposes here. You have labelled the individual in question as "bitter", others have posted in this thread and attacked the man, and not his review of this game. When you say "bitter" I assume you are referring to his "biterness" at not getting a job with CA? This is the "idle rumour and gossip" to which I refer to. Some of you here claim that he is biased, yet don't you think it is also biased to juge the reviewer on this basis alone?

And one last thing - no sane person will compare STW/MTW with ETW/NTW. They are miles apart when it comes to AI, campaign planning and all of that.

I'm not sure what you mean? For example two games in the TW series, i.e. STW and ETW cannot be compared due to being so diverse in terms of AI and campaign? I disagree strongly and there is no logic behind such an argument.

And I agree with the modding bit, they want us out of it, but out of all of this, M2TW is the best platform for modding.

And? You don't see a problem with that? How long will modders continue modding M2TW?

What?!?! We are not here in a court, to hear arguments based on facts and people defending their positions. What kind of a reply is this?

I rest my case at this point. If you can't see what's wrong with attacking the man making the review instead of the review itself, then I doubt you'll see sense.

For what it's worth I too can see the bias in the review, but reading between the lines, I can also see points of interest about the game itself. The review is written in a somewhat hotheaded manner, from the perspective of one that is annoyed that many of the issues are still unresolved. I think many of you here are too forgiving. They've had about 7 years to improve on these basics and get the new battle engine up to the standards of the old, they haven't. They've also had as long to impliment a fully functional diplomatic model, they still haven't. CA sold it's fans, supporters and customers down the river with ETW. The release of NTW instead of the customary expansion pack/fix is yet another kick up the arse for paying customers.

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

[pevergreen]

For what it's worth I too can see the bias in the review, but reading between the lines, I can also see points of interest about the game itself. The review is written in a somewhat hotheaded manner, from the perspective of one that is annoyed that many of the issues are still unresolved.

Good, you see it too!

That seems to be all they are saying. I don't believe anyone here claims the entire review is a steaming pile of blessed camel offerings, but i think its a fair call to say that his overall view has been clouded by bias. I have done a bit of modding, nowhere near the level of him, and I dont doubt for a second that the things he has said have solid ground beneath them. But please, name a game that has come out in the last 10 years that has not been full of bugs. (You can exclude Blizzard from that list)
I have not, and will not, read his review on N:TW (1. I'm not getting it 2. I see him as a modder not a reviewer) but given his post on his application for a job at CA (which i did read) the bias is there.

I think many of you here are too forgiving. They've had about 7 years to improve on these basics and get the new battle engine up to the standards of the old, they haven't.

Because 2d sprites are as easy to code and program for as ranged 3d models on a bigger, harder engine? They've gone through two completely new engines. Stuff takes longer, and is harder to do. Have you done any level of programming?

They've also had as long to impliment a fully functional diplomatic model, they still haven't.

Now I've not played S:TW, but I do own M:TW and I may be wrong, but the diplomacy in M:TW is a lot simpler than E/N:TW, no? Many times its been stressed how much harder it is to get it doing what they want on these campaign maps.

CA sold it's fans, supporters and customers down the river with ETW. The release of NTW instead of the customary expansion pack/fix is yet another kick up the arse for paying customers.

I dont agree with their current business model either. It doesnt make sense. N:TW has been officially named the evolution. Which means the next TW game is a revolution (new engine). Yet this ties into the past revolution and excludes an expansion pack (that DLC campaign can't count, thats 1/4 of Kingdoms, and I hated that...)

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

Yup, thats always gunna happen

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

Will be lovely to see you then.


I've been around since the massive amount of hate threads and CA bashing at the pre/release for M2:TW. E:TW had nothing, and N:TW is like silence compared to that.

We want quality products. Thats not unfair. I would have preferred CA have the time and combine what ETW is now and what NTW is, and release now. Sure they'd lose a year, but it would be a polished product. However, they dont have that option, SEGA is the puppet master. If CA were blizzard, they would not release until it was done to their satisfaction, but most studios dont have that option. They must publish, get the money to stay alive, and publish again to stay alive. Lower quality products, but the amount of money it costs to make a game now... We already lost enough studios.

[Fisherking]

N:TW has been officially named the evolution. Which means the next TW game is a revolution (new engine). Yet this ties into the past revolution and excludes an expansion pack (that DLC campaign can't count, thats 1/4 of Kingdoms, and I hated that...)

Where was it named as the official evolution?

Link, Link old friend!

@gollum

nice post

[Fisherking]

Setting aside whether there actually are such people for now, my point is that you appear to be insininuating that the gentleman in question is one such individual?

I think you misread it or read more into it than was there.

I try not to bash people. I do sometimes attack concepts or ideas or vigorously complain about aspects of games. But when it is fixed, and sometimes when it is just beyond hope, I move on.

No Darth is not a CA hater. He is just saying he could do it better if they gave him the tools. He wants to put his mark on the game.

Most everyone on the forums would like the tools.

We just have to see if Sega lets CA spend the time and money to give us any.

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

Let ‘em.

I have been accused of both.

It doesn’t matter to me.

[gollum]

Its still too early to judge community concensus for NTW. Some of the aspects of the review sound alarmingly true to me (i am not buying the game in any case), like say that units behind the front one shoot their backs. This was clear from the screenshots already. Many of the malee/blobbing problems in the review were present in ETW, and to be honest with you they were problems the AI always had since STW. Napoleonic TW 1 uses the MTW engine to re-create the Nap. wars; unsurprisingly the AI was terrible and the game shone in mp (although it had a campaign). Anyone who has played tw long and hard (including multiplayer) knows that the AI was is and probably will be inept at using hybrids (melee/missiles). When the so-called meleebug and other such terms started circulating among TWC SPers it was clear that even they knew that CA just took what it had in the past, gave it a graphical upgrade and released it as a gunpowder era game. Playing ETW in person confirmed that beyond any doubt. Also the fact that the pace of the battles (unit speeds, firing rates etc) seem wrong also sounds very much like CA. They did the same thing in RTW; they created a fake challenge that hid the AI's ineptness by making the game too fast. CA is simply keep milking what they've made in 2000 with upgrading primarily the looks and feel of the game to be as mainstream and contemporary as possible.

STW took 3+ years to make. It was to be released after a short time of development as a C&C clone, but CA took the risk of making it more deep, historically accurate (by hiring Prof. Turnbull, known international authority in Sengoku) and polished, delaying release for years. And to answer Darth's question, yes the person responsible for the (creation and tweaking) of the tw battle engine and battle balance did retire sometime during the development of RTW. It has been also leaked that part of the employees of CA resented the direction the company took from RTW onwards (so much for those who "dont buy into it") against the will of the admins and heads to go ahead with the plan anyway. Since then, (certain) CA developers post strategically in community forums where and when complains are voiced, in order to hype-up and create hope and anticipation pre-release and in order to subtly discredit "whinners" post-release. These are facts and not opinions (mine or otherwise), and i've seen them first hand over the last 7 years or so, here and elsewhere. It doesn t mean that there are not whinners that simply like whinning - there are. But there are plenty of others that have valid complains and they do express them because they like tw and not because they hate it. And these people are shot down in some forums systematically even, because they are not "constructive", because of the "hate" etc. Most of this is part of a ruthless war in image and public relations, and for those who think that such a thing is fantasy, just think what Mike Simpson's blog meant to address: low user ratings on metacritic.

[NimitsTexan]

Nonsense and a gross generalisation. Those criticising CA's work are not motivated by simple hatred - that is in fact slander. The issue is the decline in quality of CA's games over the last few years.

Personally, I have found each TW release more enjoyable than the last, and I do not buy the decline in quality. At worst, they have remained static (fixing some problems and introducing others), but even in the case of the much maligned BAI, I think there has been an improvement from RTW to ETW. I actually took bigger issue with the diplomatic over-agressiveness of the CAI and its almost pre-programed decisions to start a-historic wars (pitting England-Austria against Prussia-Poland in 1700) than anything else.

[loony]

I feel we are losing focus there; this is not a rant against CA+SEGA killing modders. This is about a quality review with a great deal of irony in it.

While I am not as strict regarding some issues (like the interface? hobbits? wha?), I can hardly find any flaws in the methodology of the review. It is done well, although the topping (i.e. bitter irony) is somewhat distracting.
AI being unable to rout an army that does not move is one crapy AI.
CAI being sripted to defend and not DOING ANYTHIN for 50 turns is a really crappy AI and a cheat for that matter.
Eliminating fire by rank sound dumb and unrealistic; maybe fire and advance does not work for a unit with good accuracy and reload skill but poor melee ability?
Reload time of a musket being less than 15 seconds is unrealistic and skews the tactics towards the defender.
Musket accuracy being effectively independent of range is not just unrealistic, it is plain dumb.
and so on...

Also, please note that Darth is not comparing NTW to some "perfect game", rather to his own mod "DMUC".

[Fisherking]

I feel we are losing focus there; this is not a rant against CA+SEGA killing modders. This is about a quality review with a great deal of irony in it.

While I am not as strict regarding some issues (like the interface? hobbits? wha?), I can hardly find any flaws in the methodology of the review. It is done well, although the topping (i.e. bitter irony) is somewhat distracting.
AI being unable to rout an army that does not move is one crapy AI.
CAI being sripted to defend and not DOING ANYTHIN for 50 turns is a really crappy AI and a cheat for that matter.
Eliminating fire by rank sound dumb and unrealistic; maybe fire and advance does not work for a unit with good accuracy and reload skill but poor melee ability?
Reload time of a musket being less than 15 seconds is unrealistic and skews the tactics towards the defender.
Musket accuracy being effectively independent of range is not just unrealistic, it is plain dumb.
and so on...

Also, please note that Darth is not comparing NTW to some "perfect game", rather to his own mod "DMUC".

Good points.

Thanks for bringing us back in focus.

The other point is that the version he played may not have been the retail version.

After the first review they went back and redid some of the game.

I wish I remembered where I saw it and what the link was...

And it is not that the review was not well done.

It was just the underlying feeling of an agenda in it.

Unfortunate.

[Fisherking]

@Yoei

I am sorry you have a basic misconception here.

I was not talking about legitimate complaints when I brought it up.

There are and always were people who make things up. They like discontent.

Real and honest complaints are a whole other issue. I complain as long and hard as anyone when I think something is wrong, needs changing, needs fixed, or what ever. Without trying very hard I am sure you can find my post ranting about one thing or another just like anyone else.

But I have found enough good in the games to keep playing them. If I didn't I wouldn't waste my time trying to convince anyone else not to spend money. People tend to make up their own minds what to do with their time and money and it makes little difference what others think.

At the moment we are talking about NTW and I don't see a large number of those who own the game being too disappointed in it.

It is not the same as talking about what has gone on before.

I don't see much point in carrying a grudge against CA if I am still buying the product. When I do, I won't be buying. It is that simple.

I have not always been happy with what they have done. At times it has seemed they were doing more wrong than right with their patches and balancing. I know they usually release buggy programs that take fixing. I was very disappointed in how they left ETW and I would love to see mod tools. The number of players who had issues with that game is not small. But that is a different forum.

If we are talking about who agrees with Darth's post and who doesn't, that is mixed, but many who agree just have not tried the game.

So, who are you more likely to listen to; Someone who has tried a particular thing and has an opinion, or someone who just has an opinion and they don't want to hear anything else?

Some people want knowledge or opinions, while others just want someone who agrees with them.

One can be bitter or optimistic. It is unlikely that anyone is going to change their positions on an issue based on either.

People still make up their own minds.