the most logical NapoleonTW review so far

[edyzmedieval]

So in your opinion the gentleman is simply "bitter" because he didn't get a position with CA and that's where all this has come from? I take it you know the full facts and have inside information from CA on this? Or perhaps, just perhaps your opinion is based on idle rumour and gossip...? Dispense with the formalities and speak your mind - preferably to the man himself. (terrible waste of a drink, though glad you found it somewhat entertaining all the same).

Thanks for instigating me to "revolt" but I've handled much worse trolls in my life.

What idle rumour and gossip? What in the world are you talking about? I've played all TW games from their release day (and I'm not exxagerating over here), and all I can say is that Darth's review is too bitter regarding the whole package. I'm not saying he's wrong, on the contrary, he's right on many points and I give him that, but calling NTW crap is too much of an overstatement. From my part, I enjoyed ETW (ok, I quit the first day, reinstalled after 1.5, so I'm only talking about 1.5 which is what is was supposed to be) and I enjoy NTW as well, seeing it as it is a much better variant of ETW.

And one last thing - no sane person will compare STW/MTW with ETW/NTW. They are miles apart when it comes to AI, campaign planning and all of that.
And I agree with the modding bit, they want us out of it, but out of all of this, M2TW is the best platform for modding.

A "small percentage" eh? Do you have the facts and figures to back up your statement - or did you dream up this "small percentage" out of thin air? In fact please do name these individuals so that they can come forward and defend their positions. Who are they?

What?!?! We are not here in a court, to hear arguments based on facts and people defending their positions. What kind of a reply is this? Pathetic.

[caravel]

There are and always were people who make things up. They like discontent.

Setting aside whether there actually are such people for now, my point is that you appear to be insininuating that the gentleman in question is one such individual?

What idle rumour and gossip? What in the world are you talking about? I've played all TW games from their release day (and I'm not exxagerating over here), and all I can say is that Darth's review is too bitter regarding the whole package. I'm not saying he's wrong, on the contrary, he's right on many points and I give him that, but calling NTW crap is too much of an overstatement. From my part, I enjoyed ETW (ok, I quit the first day, reinstalled after 1.5, so I'm only talking about 1.5 which is what is was supposed to be) and I enjoy NTW as well, seeing it as it is a much better variant of ETW.

We seem to be at crossed purposes here. You have labelled the individual in question as "bitter", others have posted in this thread and attacked the man, and not his review of this game. When you say "bitter" I assume you are referring to his "biterness" at not getting a job with CA? This is the "idle rumour and gossip" to which I refer to. Some of you here claim that he is biased, yet don't you think it is also biased to juge the reviewer on this basis alone?

And one last thing - no sane person will compare STW/MTW with ETW/NTW. They are miles apart when it comes to AI, campaign planning and all of that.

I'm not sure what you mean? For example two games in the TW series, i.e. STW and ETW cannot be compared due to being so diverse in terms of AI and campaign? I disagree strongly and there is no logic behind such an argument.

And I agree with the modding bit, they want us out of it, but out of all of this, M2TW is the best platform for modding.

And? You don't see a problem with that? How long will modders continue modding M2TW?

What?!?! We are not here in a court, to hear arguments based on facts and people defending their positions. What kind of a reply is this?

I rest my case at this point. If you can't see what's wrong with attacking the man making the review instead of the review itself, then I doubt you'll see sense.

For what it's worth I too can see the bias in the review, but reading between the lines, I can also see points of interest about the game itself. The review is written in a somewhat hotheaded manner, from the perspective of one that is annoyed that many of the issues are still unresolved. I think many of you here are too forgiving. They've had about 7 years to improve on these basics and get the new battle engine up to the standards of the old, they haven't. They've also had as long to impliment a fully functional diplomatic model, they still haven't. CA sold it's fans, supporters and customers down the river with ETW. The release of NTW instead of the customary expansion pack/fix is yet another kick up the arse for paying customers.

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

[pevergreen]

For what it's worth I too can see the bias in the review, but reading between the lines, I can also see points of interest about the game itself. The review is written in a somewhat hotheaded manner, from the perspective of one that is annoyed that many of the issues are still unresolved.

Good, you see it too!

That seems to be all they are saying. I don't believe anyone here claims the entire review is a steaming pile of blessed camel offerings, but i think its a fair call to say that his overall view has been clouded by bias. I have done a bit of modding, nowhere near the level of him, and I dont doubt for a second that the things he has said have solid ground beneath them. But please, name a game that has come out in the last 10 years that has not been full of bugs. (You can exclude Blizzard from that list)
I have not, and will not, read his review on N:TW (1. I'm not getting it 2. I see him as a modder not a reviewer) but given his post on his application for a job at CA (which i did read) the bias is there.

I think many of you here are too forgiving. They've had about 7 years to improve on these basics and get the new battle engine up to the standards of the old, they haven't.

Because 2d sprites are as easy to code and program for as ranged 3d models on a bigger, harder engine? They've gone through two completely new engines. Stuff takes longer, and is harder to do. Have you done any level of programming?

They've also had as long to impliment a fully functional diplomatic model, they still haven't.

Now I've not played S:TW, but I do own M:TW and I may be wrong, but the diplomacy in M:TW is a lot simpler than E/N:TW, no? Many times its been stressed how much harder it is to get it doing what they want on these campaign maps.

CA sold it's fans, supporters and customers down the river with ETW. The release of NTW instead of the customary expansion pack/fix is yet another kick up the arse for paying customers.

I dont agree with their current business model either. It doesnt make sense. N:TW has been officially named the evolution. Which means the next TW game is a revolution (new engine). Yet this ties into the past revolution and excludes an expansion pack (that DLC campaign can't count, thats 1/4 of Kingdoms, and I hated that...)

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

Yup, thats always gunna happen

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

Will be lovely to see you then.


I've been around since the massive amount of hate threads and CA bashing at the pre/release for M2:TW. E:TW had nothing, and N:TW is like silence compared to that.

We want quality products. Thats not unfair. I would have preferred CA have the time and combine what ETW is now and what NTW is, and release now. Sure they'd lose a year, but it would be a polished product. However, they dont have that option, SEGA is the puppet master. If CA were blizzard, they would not release until it was done to their satisfaction, but most studios dont have that option. They must publish, get the money to stay alive, and publish again to stay alive. Lower quality products, but the amount of money it costs to make a game now... We already lost enough studios.

[Fisherking]

N:TW has been officially named the evolution. Which means the next TW game is a revolution (new engine). Yet this ties into the past revolution and excludes an expansion pack (that DLC campaign can't count, thats 1/4 of Kingdoms, and I hated that...)

Where was it named as the official evolution?

Link, Link old friend!

@gollum

nice post

[pevergreen]

Where was it named as the official evolution?

Link, Link old friend!

As posted by IGN on August 19th, 2009.

Kieran Brigden, Communications Manager at Creative Assembly, explains: "The way that Total War development works is we do a kind of evolution-revolution cycle. We create revolutionary technology for one title - in this case Empire, which had a brand new engine written from the ground up - and all new AI. Then, for the next game, we take that technology and evolve it - in this case with Napoleon. We've taken everything we've achieved with Empire and Empire's engine and just pushed it to the limit. Napoleon is essentially the culmination of what we wanted to do with Empire, given the time to take it further."

Revolution: S:TW
Evolution: M:TW
Revolution: R:TW
Evolution: M2:TW
Revolution: E:TW
Evolution: N:TW

Re reading through it:

Indeed, the game will mix and match different body parts to make soldiers look individual and unique, with 64 different faces on offer even on the very lowest settings.

One wonders if this is still correct?

[Fisherking]

Thanks pevergreen.

[caravel]

Revolution: S:TW
Evolution: M:TW
Revolution: R:TW
Evolution: M2:TW
Revolution: E:TW
Evolution: N:TW

Hello,

No. NTW is not the "evolution", of ETW it is the "expansion". The difference is that it has been sold as a stand alone this time around. This is because CA do not want to put off potential customers that did/do not want to buy ETW.

The "evolution" title is yet to come (though of course it may be marketed as the "revolution").

Yohei

[Fisherking]

Lets hope the next is an evolution rather than a revolution.

I think they need something stable, playable, and solid from release rather than something ambitious, innovative, and broken.

[pevergreen]

Hello,

No. NTW is not the "evolution", of ETW it is the "expansion". The difference is that it has been sold as a stand alone this time around. This is because CA do not want to put off potential customers that did/do not want to buy ETW.

Right, because the quote in my post is not from a proper preview of the game, and Kieran is definately not directly quoted saying this:

"The way that Total War development works is we do a kind of evolution-revolution cycle. We create revolutionary technology for one title - in this case Empire, which had a brand new engine written from the ground up - and all new AI. Then, for the next game, we take that technology and evolve it - in this case with Napoleon. We've taken everything we've achieved with Empire and Empire's engine and just pushed it to the limit. Napoleon is essentially the culmination of what we wanted to do with Empire, given the time to take it further."

I dont see how it can be clearer than that.

[Fisherking]

Setting aside whether there actually are such people for now, my point is that you appear to be insininuating that the gentleman in question is one such individual?

I think you misread it or read more into it than was there.

I try not to bash people. I do sometimes attack concepts or ideas or vigorously complain about aspects of games. But when it is fixed, and sometimes when it is just beyond hope, I move on.

No Darth is not a CA hater. He is just saying he could do it better if they gave him the tools. He wants to put his mark on the game.

Most everyone on the forums would like the tools.

We just have to see if Sega lets CA spend the time and money to give us any.

You can accuse others of being "CA haters", in the same way that such people can accuse you of being "CA fanboys/apologists".

I will be back for the usual "I told you so" threads.

Yohei

Let ‘em.

I have been accused of both.

It doesn’t matter to me.

[gollum]

Its still too early to judge community concensus for NTW. Some of the aspects of the review sound alarmingly true to me (i am not buying the game in any case), like say that units behind the front one shoot their backs. This was clear from the screenshots already. Many of the malee/blobbing problems in the review were present in ETW, and to be honest with you they were problems the AI always had since STW. Napoleonic TW 1 uses the MTW engine to re-create the Nap. wars; unsurprisingly the AI was terrible and the game shone in mp (although it had a campaign). Anyone who has played tw long and hard (including multiplayer) knows that the AI was is and probably will be inept at using hybrids (melee/missiles). When the so-called meleebug and other such terms started circulating among TWC SPers it was clear that even they knew that CA just took what it had in the past, gave it a graphical upgrade and released it as a gunpowder era game. Playing ETW in person confirmed that beyond any doubt. Also the fact that the pace of the battles (unit speeds, firing rates etc) seem wrong also sounds very much like CA. They did the same thing in RTW; they created a fake challenge that hid the AI's ineptness by making the game too fast. CA is simply keep milking what they've made in 2000 with upgrading primarily the looks and feel of the game to be as mainstream and contemporary as possible.

STW took 3+ years to make. It was to be released after a short time of development as a C&C clone, but CA took the risk of making it more deep, historically accurate (by hiring Prof. Turnbull, known international authority in Sengoku) and polished, delaying release for years. And to answer Darth's question, yes the person responsible for the (creation and tweaking) of the tw battle engine and battle balance did retire sometime during the development of RTW. It has been also leaked that part of the employees of CA resented the direction the company took from RTW onwards (so much for those who "dont buy into it") against the will of the admins and heads to go ahead with the plan anyway. Since then, (certain) CA developers post strategically in community forums where and when complains are voiced, in order to hype-up and create hope and anticipation pre-release and in order to subtly discredit "whinners" post-release. These are facts and not opinions (mine or otherwise), and i've seen them first hand over the last 7 years or so, here and elsewhere. It doesn t mean that there are not whinners that simply like whinning - there are. But there are plenty of others that have valid complains and they do express them because they like tw and not because they hate it. And these people are shot down in some forums systematically even, because they are not "constructive", because of the "hate" etc. Most of this is part of a ruthless war in image and public relations, and for those who think that such a thing is fantasy, just think what Mike Simpson's blog meant to address: low user ratings on metacritic.

[Madoushi]

Very insightful, gollum, thanks.