Low Gaul morale

[Unintended BM]

I've noticed on my Sweboz game that the Aedui and Arverni rout very quickly. I'm not using any scary units or anything, and they usually outnumber me. If I was fighting Romans and they had the same number of troops as some of these Gaul armies, I'd probably lose the battle. Usually about a minute after my main line engages, the gauls break and I chase them down.

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?

[athanaric]

I mean, I could easily make a joke about French people retreating, but that doesn't explain anything. Why do the gauls have such low morale?

Possibly because you're facing all-levies armies. Gauls in this game are a type of faction with a very strong core of elite units, and a large base of average warriors/levies.

[Unintended BM]

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.

But really, usually I face them with one or two FMs, a bunch of levy and regular germanic spearmen, and some germanic archers or celtic slingers and maybe some celtic swordsmen mercenaries. Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

[Kival]

Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

Yes. The strength of the celtic armies are (except of spear-elites) their swordsmen. The levy spearmen are no good line-infantry, only good to fight some Cavalry and outnumber the enemy. The southern and later spearmen are able to hold some time longer but stil the germanic ones are superior. Without a change to the EDU your spearman (*) could also be able to win one on one against the northern celtic Swordsmen.

Also germanic and celtic troops have high charge bonus which gives the better attacker a high advantage.

*There is some modifation of the edu which gives all spearman a penalty of 4 to attack, so that the spearmen are no longer superior in melee to swordsmen.

[athanaric]

I've fought quite a few Solduros and naked dudes. The naked dudes never rout, but I just kill them with javelins and slingers. Solduros like to kill my FMs, but they usually run when the rest of the army starts going.

Solduros and Gaesatae are some of the game's toughest units. The Carnutes are even nastier in some respect.

Are my spearmen really superior to regular celtic spearmen?

Yes, and here's why (my "homemade" eplanation): Gauls were actually more civilized than most people think. Hence the regular Gallic units are maybe less hardened than the warriors of a more primitive, aggressive culture situated in a rougher climate (rough or extreme climate means axebitten inhabitants, see Afghanistan, Frisia, Scotland, ...).
Also, the Germanic tribes were described as more disciplined as Gauls.

And don't forget that you are infinitely better as a general than the RTW AI, which also contributes to the phenomenon.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;61
type             celtic infantry gaeroas
dictionary       celtic_infantry_gaeroas      ; Gaeroas
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       General_1
soldier          celtic_infantry_gaeroas_balroae, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_celtic_officer
officer          ebofficer_celtic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -3
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation        1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         5, 6, javelin, 45, 3, thrown, archery, piercing, spear, 10 , 1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  1, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, -1
stat_mental      10, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1208, 302, 50, 70, 1208
ownership        britons, gauls, scythia, slave, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, seleucid, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba, germans

;32
type             germanic infantry frameharjoz
dictionary       germanic_infantry_frameharjoz      ; Dugunthiz
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       General_1
soldier          germanic_infantry_dugunthiz_chattispearmen, 50, 0, 1.1
officer          ebofficer_germanic_standardbearer
mount_effect     elephant -3
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation        0.76, 1, 1.4, 2, 5, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         7, 8, javelin, 30, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         15, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear
stat_pri_armour  2, 12, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental      11, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1233, 308, 81, 140, 1233
ownership        germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, parthia, gauls, britons, scythia, spain, dacia, armenia, pontus, romans_scipii, seleucid, saba, slave

[anubis88]

Also, perhaps you had this kinda situation, the domino effect. Like in my SPQR campaign, i attacked a 3500 ptoly army with 2000 romans, and once i engaded the line an the FM died, i rushed at left flank with my extraodrinarii, and first the first unit routed, then then next phalanx, and then the next and in 10 seconds the whole army statred to rout. I lost only 100 men even though the ptolies had like 8 phalanx units, and i almost no cavalry

[Kival]

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about half of the enemy army before you can engage them.

EDIT: Typo.

[Unintended BM]

I've seen your arme composition in the EB empires thread and with that army it's no wonder, that you root the celts so fast; seven units of sweboz bodyguards are seven units of elites and 5 units of experienced slingers kill about have of the enemy army before you can engage them.

That's not my usual army, but that army was awesome. I had three big armies going through gaul, and they all met up around there, so to save troops and to beat the crap out of everything, I just did that. Usually I just use a bunch of spearmen and maybe 1 or 2 FMs with some germanic archers.

[Ca Putt]

with some germanic archers.

ah the crappiest of the archers yet in the campaign probably the most effective :DDD

Celts do have rather low morale compered to Sweboz when similar looking units face each other, yet Sweboz units have pretty high moral overall(probably do to what athanaic said) the advantage of the celts(next to economic advantages of course) (and their Elite units) is their weapon technology, they have a lot more and better swords than the Sweboz and tend to have better armor. in my Sweboz campaign the celts were easy prey until they started useing bataroas as line troops. Dugunthiz are exellent line troops(when no archers around) but those guys just got better choppaz^^. this made them a easy enemy...

[Cute Wolf]

And don't forget about them....


When the Gauls switch to heavy armoured swordsmen and fancy heavy cavalries, these guys will save your ass...
I swear in frontal combat, one unit of them could beat one unit of Solduros!!!

[Unintended BM]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

[Cute Wolf]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

1) Did you built Taverns on your home? If yes, don't forget that for some good reasons, More Civilized Celts are prone to had bad vices (and yes, morale reducing) vices from Taverns..... where the Sweboz got insane and get Berserkergang, Biting Shields, and much morale improving vices...
2) Made sure the Sweboz army didn't have naked guys in black...
3) Train your own naked guys... they improve the morale of your men (the Uirodusios)

[Unintended BM]

I didn't know Sweboz FMs get good traits from taverns. I just assumed everyone got bad traits from them. I usually get rid of them, but I'll keep that in mind for my Sweboz game.

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

[Megas Methuselah]

Those black naked guys are crazy. I'll probably end up spamming a lot of naked dudes in my Arverni game.

Sure, but don't come back complaining about low Roman morale after you sack Rome with your porno army.

Srsly, the naked Gallic buggers are crazy.

[Unintended BM]

Yeah, I always have huge trouble taking Segesta and the other northern Italian town with the naked dudes on my Roman games, I can only imagine how great they'd be elsewhere. I've used the galatian variant before, but I can only imagine how easy the game would get if I could constantly recruit and retrain them.

[Duguntz]

And if you really want ZE unit for Sweboz : Worgozez. pitty they're only merc, but they seriously will refuse to die even in front of the stubbornest ennemy! I used them extensively in my sweboz campain... and I ate Romans for breakfest with them! I engaged them just a bit later in the battle, to let the time for the moral to go lower a bit for the roman, and uasualy, with their AO axes and their scary attribute, it's a rout on contact! the same with the Black naked dudes

[seienchin]

The problem with gaul armies is that they rarely field any notable cavallery and have lots of levies, which are routing fast and by that reduce the morale of the other troops. Everytime I won against the gauls it was because of a mass rout. Esspecially after the death of the general, which is easier to kill, than the sweboz one.
Its the same with camillan roman armies. Their Triarri are insanly powerfull and never rout, except when you rout their rorarii first...^^

[Duguntz]

but the problem for almost every AI led army is mass rout... even with the grey plague... their phalangitai are unkillable, but kill their general, and surround them fast, and it's almost surely a rout. I don't think it's only a Gaul problem...

[Ca Putt]

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!

[seienchin]

yeah but gauls rout before they are surrounded :/
funnily they rout as soon as their charge wears of, exactly like some roman chronits discribe them.^^
and always remember when facing phalangitai: a surrounded Phalangite is a dead Phalangite.

PS: Wargozez: WIN!

Exactly. Simply fighting the gaul levies lets them rout. But I have the feeling its the same for the roman levies, but not for most other factions. Phalangitai never rout, when only enganged at the front and so do the sweboz and lusotann.

[Duguntz]

Well, why complaining about the likelyness of a Gaul rout? the guy's playing as Sweboz, i think it's great! so you need one scary unit to rout the army and one unit of light cav... to play in the routing mass after it! don't complain! you'll see, late in the game when you'll face Maks (if they come up, like they did to me) against phalangitai, now the real sport begin! or when you take the territory near the sauromate, and they decide they want it also... it's scary the casualities them nomad inflict on our disarmoured units... so if you want real sport, wait before expanding, and you'll see that rout is something that happens less often

[Macilrille]

I started an Arverni game, and the lower morale is apparent, at least for the spearmen. I've never had any german troops rout when I was using them, but both the levy and regular gaul spearmen rout whenever I have them holding their place in towns. I have them block a street in a town, then send my swordsmen around to the other side to flank the enemy, but half the time, my spearmen rout before I can get my swordmen around.

In my Sweboz game, I basically already wiped out the gauls, so I'm not worried about fighting them. I'm worried about fighting the Sweboz on my Arverni game now though.

Everybody worries about the Sweboz, as it should be. Historically everybody did.

[Duguntz]

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

[WinsingtonIII]

Seconded... yeah, i made a mistake, i told he was playing as sweboz... i just saw that he's playing as Arverni.. Sorry!

Actually he's playing as both. Originally he was talking about how in his Sweboz game, the Gallic armies routed very quickly. But now he also is playing an Arverni game where he is worried about fighting the Sweboz.

[Duguntz]

haaa... Ok thanks... well, EVERYONE should worry about Sweboz (especially their neighbour!)

[Macilrille]

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

[Duguntz]

And themselves, but that is not reflected in RTW except through the nasty rebels (read, best way of getting the leet post-reform Sweboz units, *sends a loaded and experienced diplomat the Rebel Hárjánáz' way*)

True i must say, but in that time, every one had to worry about themself also, as war between petty kingdoms and neighbour territories was frequent, as chieftains tried to extend their sphere of influence...

[Power2the1]

In EB2 the rapid routing of A.I. led Celts will be fixed for levy types, especially in the early era when the warrior society wasn't as exclusive and in the hands of the 'few' as it was in the Later Era. That being said, the levies of the later era will probably not be as powerful as the early era, but the armored chainmail/javelin/lance infantry and cavaly will be professionals in every sense of the word, though I hope to make them a bit smaller in number that ones in the Early Era. So if all comes to be, you'll be facing stronger lower end units in the start, but as time goes on those lower end units loose their 'edge' as the professionals become more specialized, more armored, and focused upon their craft, especially with their infantry and mounted semi-professional fighting vassals and men-at-arms in tow. It will not be the 'walk over' it seems to be in EB1 -- I never see the Celts excell in Europe in the hundreds of campaigns I've played

[Macilrille]

Sounds nice :-D
In my current Roman Campaign the Aedui were doing quite well, having all of Gaul except "Brittany" and Massilia (Greek till the Greeks attacked me and I took it) and reducing the Averni to two settlements in the Alpe Region. Their war with the Sweboz had turned against them after they had pushed forwards to take the northernmost Gawjam, but they held their own against Sweboz and Lussos in Gaul itself. Then they decide for no reason to attack a fort of mine bordering not themselves, but the Averni and I had to punish them. I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.

[WinsingtonIII]

I gave them the two settlements I took and plundered back in exchange for peace, but I fear that they are now broken and will be pushed back by Sweboz and Luso unless I give them lots of money. I am allied to both their enemies so...

I will probably use the Console instead to help them a bit.

That's the thing about the Gallic factions in EB. It's very possible for either the Aedui or Arverni to come out on top early and take all of Gaul, but the problem is then they tend not to last long in this position because they get squeezed by the Sweboz, Romani, and sometimes the Lusos. I've seen strong Sweboz and Romani empires quite a bit, and there are instances where the Lusotanians go berserk and take the entire west half of Europe, but I don't recall ever seeing a Gallic faction do the same thing. They can hang on for a while with a decent empire in Gaul, but they always seem to come out the underdog in the end. So, it's a good thing that EB2 is working to change this.