is there free will?

**Sasaki Kojiro** · 03-29-2010, 16:36

My complaint with your system is that it boils down to, "We have to want what we want" rather than, "we choose what we want".

Ah, but it is in the moment so to speak that we have to want what we want. Although it is true that we don't choose many of our wants (you in no way chose to like food over non-food, or music over screeching sounds, etc) we can want to choose/change certain wants of ours. You can point one step back on the chain and say that we can't choose to want to choose our wants, but for what purpose? We are still fettered at some point, because we exist.

I think you are mistaking the ability to express our Will, and its Freedom. Let us be clear, "Freedom" in any context means "to be unfettered" To be free is to be unconstrained. Now, the Will if it is truly Free must be uncontrained and able to make choices in spite of external pressure. Now, the expression of the Will is something else, I can exercise my Free Will and decide I want to fly, but I can't carry through that Will because I don't have wings. Of course, man continued to Will this, wholly against his nature, and thence built himself wings.

So the Will is Free but the Action isn't. Freedom of Action is a preserve of the Divine, whether man has Free Will within himself is a seperate question. Is the distinction I am making clear, now?

I see. But intuitively it feels like the will has constraints on it. You mentioned that we can't fly because we don't have wings, but aren't their many things that we want to do but can't that are more internal? I may want to stay awake, but not be able to. There are many internal forces.

I don't think your freedom of will is inherently different from mine. You are still supposing an individual with a self and everything that comes with that. That has inherent constraints.

Now, the Will can allow itself to be bound by, for example, morality and be held accountable for such a decision. However, because the Will is Free such notionally binding, or rather submission, is voluntary.

But we have innate moral instincts that we don't choose. And as a child there is much we don't choose.

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 03-30-2010, 13:39

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

Ah, but it is in the moment so to speak that we have to want what we want. Although it is true that we don't choose many of our wants (you in no way chose to like food over non-food, or music over screeching sounds, etc) we can want to choose/change certain wants of ours. You can point one step back on the chain and say that we can't choose to want to choose our wants, but for what purpose? We are still fettered at some point, because we exist.

I see what you are saying, but I think you are trying to reduce the argument back through time to create an ad absurdiam effect. Also, your examples are defective I'm afraid, some people choose not to like food and therefore starve themselves to death, others listen to sounds that I defy anyone to actually call "music" for pleasure.

I see. But intuitively it feels like the will has constraints on it. You mentioned that we can't fly because we don't have wings, but aren't their many things that we want to do but can't that are more internal? I may want to stay awake, but not be able to. There are many internal forces.

I don't think your freedom of will is inherently different from mine. You are still supposing an individual with a self and everything that comes with that. That has inherent constraints.

These are all [i]physical]/i] examples and threfore belong to the realm of Action, not Will. What you are essentially saying is that we cannot control our physical beings in every sense, but that is irrelevant when our Will is not itself physical. I know you are going to say that it is, because it is contained in our brain, but I would point out here that the brain is merely the organ which houses the electrical impulses that make up our conciousness.

But we have innate moral instincts that we don't choose. And as a child there is much we don't choose.

actually, I agree with you, though I believe they originate outside ourselves. However, many people disregard these, so they clearly aren't binding either.