Mafia IX: Triumph of the Mafia [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

I'm just saying I've been hounded for three rounds over a rather silly WIFOM in the writeups. If it were anyone else, those WIFOMs would have been ignored. It's a miracle I am still here, and the only reason why I am is because Beefy and Reenk changed their minds. I don't see how in any way I'm being treated special or playing the game in an unfair way. Secondly, I have never, ever, ever used this wagon strategy before this game and Shadow Fort. Since my first game I've been abhorrent of bandwagon votes. Your complaints don't make any sense to me, and I'm trying to listen with an open mind.

Then tell me if any other people then you, Tincow and Sasaki would have decided to use the strategy you are using. What would have been your own reaction? Would you be driving the case to lynch them? Would it seem scummy to you?Well if you cant see sense in my logic.Take a look at Joorays post. He seems to think that you should be given a break, because you had some misfortune in other game. That tells completely enough for me. Just relax and see the data once this round of voting is concluded

[Joooray]

This just confirms what i said to pizza. In this new enviroment. There is no chance in hell that he could be lynched over me, no matter how he behaves. So il stick my vote to him and be gone after im lynched, so im not interfering this new way of playing these games.

Well my comment was meant a bit ironic. I think it is due to the special setup of this game, that there is little else to go with than bandwagon with maybe questionable reasoning.
But a bit of a choice would be nice from time to time.

eidt: Also, he might be mafia, but that's as likely as with anybody else. If I was mafia in a game like this, I'd also let Atpg live as long as possible, as I could be sure he would draw attention to himself and away from me sooner or later.

[Kagemusha]

Well my comment was meant a bit ironic. I think it is due to the special setup of this game, that there is little else to go with than bandwagon with maybe questionable reasoning.
But a bit of a choice would be nice from time to time.

I understand there was irony. But i wouldnt be even slightly amazed if that is indeed the mindset of some players. Just look at the vote renata throwed at me. Voting me, without any context while jokingly asking pizza when he should be lynched. But like i said before. Lets see how the vote will conclude as i dont have any problems proving my point with my own death. Its not a biggie.

[Joooray]

I understand there was irony. But i wouldnt be even slightly amazed if that is indeed the mindset of some players. Just look at the vote renata throwed at me. Voting me, without any context while jokingly asking pizza when he should be lynched. But like i said before. Lets see how the vote will conclude as i dont have any problems proving my point with my own death. Its not a biggie.

I don't think Renata was joking. Atpg will have to go eventually, the town just grows more suspicious of him over time and won't let him live till the end. That's at least my prediction and that's the beauty of letting Atpg life when you are mafia. He is a late game lynch target, no matter if innocent, or not.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't think Renata was joking. Atpg will have to go eventually, the town just grows more suspicious of him over time and won't let him live till the end. That's at least my prediction and that's the beauty of letting Atpg life when you are mafia. He is a late game lynch target, no matter if innocent, or not.

Absolutely. That is why I'm working my butt off to get murdered. Which means I just might not be... which means I just might have a lynch vote later on in the game, unless the mafia wins the game of chicken and you lynch me, which will absolutely happen because you guys are chicken.

Then tell me if any other people then you, Tincow and Sasaki would have decided to use the strategy you are using. What would have been your own reaction? Would you be driving the case to lynch them? Would it seem scummy to you?Well if you cant see sense in my logic.Take a look at Joorays post. He seems to think that you should be given a break, because you had some misfortune in other game. That tells completely enough for me. Just relax and see the data once this round of voting is concluded

Yak yak spoilered for the sanity of people reading this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yaseikhaan started the game by calling for the death of certain people, and I obliged. Reason was, if he's mafia, such a tactic will get him dead sooner. If he's townie, he's got a decent shot of hitting mafia or at the very least spooking them. Sasaki and TinCow didn't enter into it until Khaan died. And yeah, I decided to wagon people this game, I decided rather arbitrarily who to follow. Until recently I've never really ever been on the same page as Sasaki, and we've often had fundamental disagreements on how to play and what constitutes scummy. Khaan was actually a purely for fun choice because he claims he's a terrible townie. Well, if he hit a scumbag with my help, yay... maybe he will feel better about his townie-ness, or at least laugh about how absurd it was that someone actually died based on a silly point and wagon/destroy strategy.

What was my reaction to his bold leadership? I decided to follow. Which is significantly different from what I usually do, which is pick my own suspects and hope people follow me. This game has been tons of fun because I'm trying something different. What if I were mafia and someone had picked my partner? Wouldn't it have been very, very obvious that I wasn't bandwagoning my own partner, a change from other rounds? I'd end up being an immovable (without looking scummy) vote against my own team. And then me surviving the game is a nonexistent possibility, after my partner dies I'd be soon to follow. So it would have doomed my entire team. It's ridiculous for me to use this strategy as mafia, but no one has noticed that or factored that into their analysis. But then again no one truly understands me. As for Joooray thinking I should be given a break, all I've ever asked for is that I don't get Night One killed/investigated/roleblocked a dozen games in a row, which has been happening (and continued to happen, in Shadow Fort). That's all I ever asked for. That's all... vote me as you please. No cheese off my slice. I also said I didn't want to be treated with kid gloves, I said that explicitly. I can't control what Joooray does, though, or what he thinks. Frankly in this game I would have loved to have been murdered. It's a very strong tactic leaving me alive because then people, for some odd reason, analyze me like no one else, and I become the topic of discussion even when I am doing nothing but lazy, mindless bandwagoning all game long. I can't even have a normal game by playing like how other people do without being scrutinzed, but that's fine by me, whatever floats your boats.

In other games, especially in the past, I would have been very critical of bandwagoners. Well I've done that for over a year now, and it is getting stale. In a game with this simplistic setup, I believe there is a tactical advantage in creating a voting bloc the mafia alone cannot overcome. That way all our blunders will be town blunders. That last round with shlin, for example, was miserable. Shlin shouldn't have self-voted and we shouldn't have allowed it to stand at 3 votes to several with 2, but I think people weren't paying attention. I take it for granted that if people are going to try to have 2 or 3 votes put together every round that they should eventually die. Otherwise it becomes the easy strategy for the mafia to win the game. I'd expect that you wouldn't let me or Sasaki or Tincow actually survive after we take several shots at the mafia, but the underlying point of it all (speaking for myself only) is that the mafia would be dumb to try it because it will result in unavoidable death and it will invite criticism and it will piss people off. So what?

The point of the game is to analyze (that comes later, for me) to use strategy and tactics (I'm using a brand-new one for this game, for me) and to eventually win (as is my goal). But like I said, what reasoning have you for voting certain people? Other than the vague and highly likely to be wrong things like "I saw Pizza in the writeup, he must have did it to himself..." or "These sound like pevergreen and Kage's ideas for kills" we don't really have anything. And they are certainly very subjective, and quite possibly bad reasons. But, perhaps it is a long shot which may work... better than a random vote. A quick and subjective calculation of the odds tells me that Sasaki and TinCow are probably townies, and that this wagon strategy will annoy the mafia, and probably get either myself or them killed, which just adds extra credibility to either mine or their analysis in the endgame, where the mafia are the most vulnerable and exposed and the analysis is the most accurate.

That's my grand strategy, to get myself murdered and to prevent mafia control of the vote, or make it suicidal for the mafia to control it. Nothing fancy, and nothing I've ever tried before. That's as much thought as I've put into the game so far. IMO it is a simple and probably effective strategy. When I die, lynch or not, I will switch tactics to a more analytical style and do actual deep thinking. Until then, your fierce opposition to my chosen strategy this game means that there is a slight chance that I've rattled your cage and you want me lynched, but not murdered. As such, I think Sasaki's suggestion of your head was a good one. It's quite possibly wrong, this isn't an exact science.

[pevergreen]

Vote: ATPG

I should probably actually vote.

No one answered my question, and since it was mainly aimed at PAGT...

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: ATPG

I should probably actually vote.

No one answered my question, and since it was mainly aimed at PAGT...

You'll die tonight, Pevergreen.

[Kagemusha]

Absolutely. That is why I'm working my butt off to get murdered. Which means I just might not be... which means I just might have a lynch vote later on in the game, unless the mafia wins the game of chicken and you lynch me, which will absolutely happen because you guys are chicken.



Yak yak spoilered for the sanity of people reading this.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yaseikhaan started the game by calling for the death of certain people, and I obliged. Reason was, if he's mafia, such a tactic will get him dead sooner. If he's townie, he's got a decent shot of hitting mafia or at the very least spooking them. Sasaki and TinCow didn't enter into it until Khaan died. And yeah, I decided to wagon people this game, I decided rather arbitrarily who to follow. Until recently I've never really ever been on the same page as Sasaki, and we've often had fundamental disagreements on how to play and what constitutes scummy. Khaan was actually a purely for fun choice because he claims he's a terrible townie. Well, if he hit a scumbag with my help, yay... maybe he will feel better about his townie-ness, or at least laugh about how absurd it was that someone actually died based on a silly point and wagon/destroy strategy.

What was my reaction to his bold leadership? I decided to follow. Which is significantly different from what I usually do, which is pick my own suspects and hope people follow me. This game has been tons of fun because I'm trying something different. What if I were mafia and someone had picked my partner? Wouldn't it have been very, very obvious that I wasn't bandwagoning my own partner, a change from other rounds? I'd end up being an immovable (without looking scummy) vote against my own team. And then me surviving the game is a nonexistent possibility, after my partner dies I'd be soon to follow. So it would have doomed my entire team. It's ridiculous for me to use this strategy as mafia, but no one has noticed that or factored that into their analysis. But then again no one truly understands me. As for Joooray thinking I should be given a break, all I've ever asked for is that I don't get Night One killed/investigated/roleblocked a dozen games in a row, which has been happening (and continued to happen, in Shadow Fort). That's all I ever asked for. That's all... vote me as you please. No cheese off my slice. I also said I didn't want to be treated with kid gloves, I said that explicitly. I can't control what Joooray does, though, or what he thinks. Frankly in this game I would have loved to have been murdered. It's a very strong tactic leaving me alive because then people, for some odd reason, analyze me like no one else, and I become the topic of discussion even when I am doing nothing but lazy, mindless bandwagoning all game long. I can't even have a normal game by playing like how other people do without being scrutinzed, but that's fine by me, whatever floats your boats.

In other games, especially in the past, I would have been very critical of bandwagoners. Well I've done that for over a year now, and it is getting stale. In a game with this simplistic setup, I believe there is a tactical advantage in creating a voting bloc the mafia alone cannot overcome. That way all our blunders will be town blunders. That last round with shlin, for example, was miserable. Shlin shouldn't have self-voted and we shouldn't have allowed it to stand at 3 votes to several with 2, but I think people weren't paying attention. I take it for granted that if people are going to try to have 2 or 3 votes put together every round that they should eventually die. Otherwise it becomes the easy strategy for the mafia to win the game. I'd expect that you wouldn't let me or Sasaki or Tincow actually survive after we take several shots at the mafia, but the underlying point of it all (speaking for myself only) is that the mafia would be dumb to try it because it will result in unavoidable death and it will invite criticism and it will piss people off. So what?

The point of the game is to analyze (that comes later, for me) to use strategy and tactics (I'm using a brand-new one for this game, for me) and to eventually win (as is my goal). But like I said, what reasoning have you for voting certain people? Other than the vague and highly likely to be wrong things like "I saw Pizza in the writeup, he must have did it to himself..." or "These sound like pevergreen and Kage's ideas for kills" we don't really have anything. And they are certainly very subjective, and quite possibly bad reasons. But, perhaps it is a long shot which may work... better than a random vote. A quick and subjective calculation of the odds tells me that Sasaki and TinCow are probably townies, and that this wagon strategy will annoy the mafia, and probably get either myself or them killed, which just adds extra credibility to either mine or their analysis in the endgame, where the mafia are the most vulnerable and exposed and the analysis is the most accurate.

That's my grand strategy, to get myself murdered and to prevent mafia control of the vote, or make it suicidal for the mafia to control it. Nothing fancy, and nothing I've ever tried before. That's as much thought as I've put into the game so far. IMO it is a simple and probably effective strategy. When I die, lynch or not, I will switch tactics to a more analytical style and do actual deep thinking. Until then, your fierce opposition to my chosen strategy this game means that there is a slight chance that I've rattled your cage and you want me lynched, but not murdered. As such, I think Sasaki's suggestion of your head was a good one. It's quite possibly wrong, this isn't an exact science.

To be honest i dont see anything in your reply that would change my opinion. Essentially by creating this so called voting block. You force mafia into lurking strategy, unless the mafia is Tincow, Sasaki or you.Which would mean that one or two of you is playing the others. So all this grand strategy does is that it places the power of the town in few hands and makes it easier for the mafia to hide in the crowd, since individual reasoning is not necessary for others under this so called "bold leadership". Its really simply just a bad tactics. Basically you just decide to flip a coin each day phase on behalf of the town, without asking for any kind of mandate for you guys to do that.

In my perspective that is a) harmfull for the town. b) harmfull for the game. So you three should be lynched and the rest should then have a opportunity to use their own brains.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In my perspective that is a) harmfull for the town. b) harmfull for the game. So you three should be lynched and the rest should then have a opportunity to use their own brains.

What's stopping you from doing so now? Seriously, how is 3 votes holding up the whole game? Quite risible.

Also, how is attempting to vote for the mafia and prevent them from controling the vote bad tactics? It means if Sasaki chooses a scum, they've got a much better chance of ending up dead. I didn't see any reasons behind your assertions it was bad strategy. Also, you can't say it's harmful to the town, unless you know something we don't. This is speculation, not fact. We three should be lynched, and after that, the game is over, isn't it? Your suggestion to get the town back into the town's hands would doom the town, especially because I know for a fact at least 1/3 of those people aren't mafia, (and it would be really, really dumb if 2/3 of them were mafia) and I plan on voting for one of the other two soon enough.

[Kagemusha]

What's stopping you from doing so now? Seriously, how is 3 votes holding up the whole game? Quite risible.

Also, how is attempting to vote for the mafia and prevent them from controling the vote bad tactics? It means if Sasaki chooses a scum, they've got a much better chance of ending up dead. I didn't see any reasons behind your assertions it was bad strategy. Also, you can't say it's harmful to the town, unless you know something we don't. This is speculation, not fact. We three should be lynched, and after that, the game is over, isn't it? Your suggestion to get the town back into the town's hands would doom the town, especially because I know for a fact at least 1/3 of those people aren't mafia, (and it would be really, really dumb if 2/3 of them were mafia) and I plan on voting for one of the other two soon enough.

Again you are analyzing a un finished vote. What im talking about is general principle. Dont you understand that if someone else is controlling the vote. The only thing mafia has to do is to vote according to that vote and pick you guys up at certain points during nights. Your system gives nothing else to the town then giving a easy ride to the mafia. Mafia doesnt need to defend themselves in the thread and make possible mistakes, since it is not required under your voting block. I cant see it as anything else then attempt for the three of you to stay alive in coordination for the rest of the game. Which is very scummy to begin with. So lets just see how it will turn out in the end of the phase. I for one take very little pleasure playing this game, just so i cant use my own judgement, but rather give my own decisions to hands of others.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Again you are analyzing a un finished vote.

Where did I analyze the vote in that post?

What im talking about is general principle. Dont you understand that if someone else is controlling the vote. The only thing mafia has to do is to vote according to that vote and pick you guys up at certain points during nights.

Not sure I follow.

Your system gives nothing else to the town then giving a easy ride to the mafia.

How?

Mafia doesnt need to defend themselves in the thread and make possible mistakes, since it is not required under your voting block.

Kage, in any game the mafia will get votes on them. It's not required that they defend themselves or make mistakes there, under someone else's spontaneous, one-round-only voting bloc either.

There's no difference from the mafia's perspective which 3, 4, or 5 people are voting for them. Doesn't matter if it is the ATPG, Sasaki, Tincow trio or the Kage, pever, Thermal trio, all that matters is that they get voted. How that person is selected makes no difference either... could it be tarot card readings, a roll of the dice, an OMGUS vote, or a thorough analysis, all that matters is they get voted.

I fail to see how different 3 people who vote together is from 3 people who don't always vote together, but did during one round. It means nothing to the mafia, and the result is the same.

I cant see it as anything else then attempt for the three of you to stay alive in coordination for the rest of the game.

That's not a likely way of accomplishing that. I'm a vote away from being lynched and many haven't voted yet. It also makes people, such as yourself, openly oppose and call for the heads of all three people involved. Nothing like running up to a wasp's nest and hitting it with a brick to get the wasps to not sting you.... it is just asking for trouble.

Which is very scummy to begin with.

Define "scummy".

Since everyone and everything can be defined in all circumstances as potentially scummy, I chalk this word up to "I have no substantive argument, but I'll add this word to make it sound like I am serious".

So lets just see how it will turn out in the end of the phase. I for one take very little pleasure playing this game, just so i cant use my own judgement

Who is forcing you to play this way? No one. Are you playing this way? No. Did the bandwagon trio ever, at any time, control a significant fraction of the votes? Not really.

I am baffled by how others are playing the game is impacting your own ability to play. I am not getting it.

but rather give my own decisions to hands of others.

The decision is mine every round to follow or take my own course. I was considering it until Sasaki voted for you. I might have gone for pevergreen instead, but I saw that I might have the votes on you this round if there were no other real candidates or objections. Never has free will been removed from the game. I see your objections to the style, I see that you think it is bad strategy. I don't understand why, but it is not necessary for me to. I do not understand how it is impacting your game experience at all, that seems to be an exaggeration or (since you're quite skilled at these games, I understand) a way of illiciting sympathy for your cause, and a rallying cry to destroy the evil bandwagoners. But taking you at face value, all I see is a difference of opinion but no substance behind it.

Anyways. I can see we will talk in circles, and as it seems either my head will roll, or yours, or some dark horse candidate, I shake hands and wish you luck, and P.S. I am not mafia.

[Captain Blackadder]

Vote Kagemusha

What are the chances that atpg would be scum in both large games.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

fos:captain blackadder

unvote, vote:pevergreen

Kage seems ok as far as I can tell, which makes pevergreen better

[TinCow]

unvote; vote: pevergreen

He speaks Hovitos.

[Askthepizzaguy]

And the wagon keeps rollin' rollin' rollin' rollin'!!!

unvote, vote: pevergreen

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Vote: Tincow

[Kagemusha]

Where did I analyze the vote in that post?



Not sure I follow.



How?



Kage, in any game the mafia will get votes on them. It's not required that they defend themselves or make mistakes there, under someone else's spontaneous, one-round-only voting bloc either.

There's no difference from the mafia's perspective which 3, 4, or 5 people are voting for them. Doesn't matter if it is the ATPG, Sasaki, Tincow trio or the Kage, pever, Thermal trio, all that matters is that they get voted. How that person is selected makes no difference either... could it be tarot card readings, a roll of the dice, an OMGUS vote, or a thorough analysis, all that matters is they get voted.

I fail to see how different 3 people who vote together is from 3 people who don't always vote together, but did during one round. It means nothing to the mafia, and the result is the same.



That's not a likely way of accomplishing that. I'm a vote away from being lynched and many haven't voted yet. It also makes people, such as yourself, openly oppose and call for the heads of all three people involved. Nothing like running up to a wasp's nest and hitting it with a brick to get the wasps to not sting you.... it is just asking for trouble.



Define "scummy".

Since everyone and everything can be defined in all circumstances as potentially scummy, I chalk this word up to "I have no substantive argument, but I'll add this word to make it sound like I am serious".



Who is forcing you to play this way? No one. Are you playing this way? No. Did the bandwagon trio ever, at any time, control a significant fraction of the votes? Not really.

I am baffled by how others are playing the game is impacting your own ability to play. I am not getting it.



The decision is mine every round to follow or take my own course. I was considering it until Sasaki voted for you. I might have gone for pevergreen instead, but I saw that I might have the votes on you this round if there were no other real candidates or objections. Never has free will been removed from the game. I see your objections to the style, I see that you think it is bad strategy. I don't understand why, but it is not necessary for me to. I do not understand how it is impacting your game experience at all, that seems to be an exaggeration or (since you're quite skilled at these games, I understand) a way of illiciting sympathy for your cause, and a rallying cry to destroy the evil bandwagoners. But taking you at face value, all I see is a difference of opinion but no substance behind it.

Anyways. I can see we will talk in circles, and as it seems either my head will roll, or yours, or some dark horse candidate, I shake hands and wish you luck, and P.S. I am not mafia.

Ofcourse these are matters of opinion.As no one knows for certain the real scum expect themselves. And i agree to disagree with you on the strategy. This is all both of us can do. The others can decide who´s points seem more logical. Still the only larger thing in this game which is out of the ordinary is the change of tactics of your trio and untill i see anything more suspicious i will do my best to get you people lynched. P.S I am not mafia either.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Then you might notice I've just placed my head a lot closer to the chopping block. P-ever only has 3 votes, you had more.

Here is your chance. If I am mafia, this is your opportunity to finish me.

[Kagemusha]

Unvote and vote: Tincow

[Askthepizzaguy]

Puts TinCow into the lead.

[Kagemusha]

Puts TinCow into the lead.

Yes it does. I am doing exactly what i told you i would.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would weep at the loss of my beloved friend. What did TinCow ever do to you, besides threaten you with death?

Actually, what is interesting now is that if TinCow wants to save himself, he might choose to vote for me. You clever, clever devil.


Tally:

TinCow: 4 (Joooray, Thermal, Ibn, Kage)
pevergreen: 3 (Sasaki, TinCow, ATPG)
Kage: 2 (Renata, Blackadder)
ATPG: 2 (Mentos, Peverguy)
Sasaki: 1 (Beefy187)
Subotan: 1 (Reenk)
Thermal: 1 (Psycho)
Reenk: 1 (Subotan)

[Reenk Roink]

Unvote: Subotan
Vote: TinCow

Kage and pever must live because they are better than most others.

Oooh, a delayed OMGUS...

I didn't see it initially because I don't read the thread before voting (only skim it after). I voted you as soon as I saw though, doing the right thing.

[Thermal]

Vote Kagemusha

What are the chances that atpg would be scum in both large games.

Infallible logic....

Unvote: Subotan
Vote: TinCow

Nail is starting to sink into the koffin.

[Subotan]

I didn't see it initially because I don't read the thread before voting (only skim it after). I voted you as soon as I saw though, doing the right thing.

Us noble bodyguards have to stick together

Unvote: Reenk Roink; Vote PEVERGREEN

Choo choo

[Thermal]

Us noble bodyguards have to stick together

Unvote: Reenk Roink; Vote PEVERGREEN

Choo choo

Hey don't be a rebel, if you hang around with the bullies, they'll make you do all the dirty work, you'll get the blame for it all!

[Renata]

unvote, vote pevergreen

I need the logic module removed from my head, please. It makes me too easy to manipulate.

[Kagemusha]

unvote, vote pevergreen

I need the logic module removed from my head, please. It makes me too easy to manipulate.

And may i ask what reasons you have to switch your vote from me to pever? What is the rationale behind it?

[Renata]

You complaining? :)

ATPG buttonholed me earlier and made a couple of arguments for pever over Tincow. First, that TinCow's "strategy" is too likely to get him lynched to be a likely mafia tactic. Second, that pever's typical playstyle isn't really conducive to late-game issues, regardless of his alignment. Third ... I can't remember if there was a third. Anyway, it made sense. It was very logical. Which is why I say I'm too easy to manipulate. You'd think eventually I'd learn, but no.

Finally, because my vote on you was doing no good, and the day is winding down, and I'm here. May as well make a choice among the two options available.

[Kagemusha]

You complaining? :)

ATPG buttonholed me earlier and made a couple of arguments for pever over Tincow. First, that TinCow's "strategy" is too likely to get him lynched to be a likely mafia tactic. Second, that pever's typical playstyle isn't really conducive to late-game issues, regardless of his alignment. Third ... I can't remember if there was a third. Anyway, it made sense. It was very logical. Which is why I say I'm too easy to manipulate. You'd think eventually I'd learn, but no.

Finally, because my vote on you was doing no good, and the day is winding down, and I'm here. May as well make a choice among the two options available.

So basically you are trying to protect Tincow by voting pevergreen? And why do you see it important that your vote will be decisive for a lynch? Why the bloodlust?