Dutch Marines Shove Wooden Shoe up Pirate posterior: Give Finger to EU

[Vladimir]

Go dutchies!

I'm really tempted to post this without commentary. As most of you may assume, I'd prefer to solve the Somali pirate crisis by taking out a town or two. Until then, we'll have to rely on the Dutch.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...4-H2wD9ETSR1O2

I like this one:

"The pirates surrendered the moment they saw the marines,"

Is there any doubt that a decent show of force would deter further attacks?

[Strike For The South]

Hans Lodder would make a good villian in DIE HARD

[Banquo's Ghost]

I tend to agree that acts of piracy should be met with appropriate force such as this. However:

Lodder first ascertained that the freighter's crew had locked themselves in a bulletproof room.

I'm not entirely sure how he guaranteed this, but such a situation helped his attempt. Further aggressive attacks will simply mean that the hostages are kept in areas of the ship where they can be threatened or used as human shields. Even the Dutch are unlikely to go Rambo when innocents are going to die en masse. (And for the record, the French Navy has been shooting up the Somalis for some time).

[Furunculus]

awesome story cheers.

[al Roumi]

As most of you may assume, I'd prefer to solve the Somali pirate crisis by taking out a town or two.

Is there any doubt that a decent show of force would deter further attacks?

yeah, charging in like that would be good.



Until there is an legitimate and acceptable (to Somali's, or whoever) legal punishment for piracy (i.e. not death at the hands of a foreign Government), there won't be a truly positive change. Unfortunately, that might require some sort of Somali state... oh dear.

Edit: My apologies for the pic but...

[Vladimir]

This is more appropriate:



And one for you as well.

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

Yes, it is - and has been for a couple of centuries. Barbarism merely creates more barbarism.

[Fragony]

Glad nobody got hurt that's all.

Even the Dutch are unlikely to go Rambo

Very unlikely

[al Roumi]

And one for you as well.

There is a tried and true way to stop pirates; and the legal system isn't it.

LOL what are you going to do? Make them walk the plank?

Shiver me timbers that'l sort the lilly-livered lot out won't it, Bosun.

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

[Vladimir]

Yes, it is - and has been for a couple of centuries. Barbarism merely creates more barbarism.

You know better.

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Barbary_War

[Fragony]

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

We prefer 'practising flat hand theorists'

[Banquo's Ghost]

You know better.

You might do well to actually read what you linked, because it really doesn't support your view on ignoring legal process. Also, having an actual state leader to work with helps enormously, not to mention relying on the protection of the British.

[Vladimir]

Make it legal, then you can go send your pimpslapping forces in.

[sith]I will make it legal.[/sith]

[al Roumi]

You might do well to actually read what you linked, because it really doesn't support your view on ignoring legal process. Also, having an actual state leader to work with helps enormously, not to mention relying on the protection of the British.

Avast me hearty! I was just going to say the same, having read through both wikis. Somalia is a truer power vacuum than the Barbary coast -the pirates themselves have probably more resources than anyone on the mainland who might be able hold them to account or reign them in...

[Vladimir]

I don't have a view on ignoring legal processes. The links aren't about establishing a legal argument against piracy, which is pretty much illegal everywhere in Europe (in less you're English). This isn't about establishing legal processes to impose law on the lawless. It's about taking action against common and undisciplined pirates.

Clearly you will both see what you want to. The fact that there isn't a legitimate government government to enforce its authority doesn't mean other nations can't take action. Good luck with establishing a strong central government in Somalia. Until then lives and money will be lost because of these attacks. Perhaps you think the Moro pirates are a better example.

[al Roumi]

I don't have a view on ignoring legal processes. The links aren't about establishing a legal argument against piracy, which is pretty much illegal everywhere in Europe (in less you're English). This isn't about establishing legal processes to impose law on the lawless. It's about taking action against common and undisciplined pirates.

Indeed, piracy is illegal. Invading territory without a legitimate cassus belli (or UN mandate) is also illegal.

Finding and applying a legitimate legal solution is the challenge, otherwise any action taken is likely to cause more problems -even if it solves the immediate piracy one.

Somali (there was also some Yemeni?) piracy is a big legal headache for anyone trying to deal with it (questions of sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability) -hence why it was easier for the Dutch force to circumvent the EU mission and its red-tape (inevitable for any multilateral mission).

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

[Vladimir]

Indeed, piracy is ilegal. Invading territory without a legitimate cassus belli (or UN mandate) is also illegal.

Finding and applying a legitimate legal solution is the challenge, otherwise any action taken is likely to cause more problems -even if it solves the immediate piracy one.

Somali (there was also some Yemeni?) piracy is a big legal headache for anyone trying to deal with it (questions of sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability) -hence why it was easier for the Dutch force to circumvent the EU mission and its red-tape (inevitable for any multilateral mission).

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

Hopefully I don't sound too harsh. I'm not seriously advocating a ground invasion or a good old fashioned Roman massacre. Clearly these pirates control ports, areas of land, and naval assets. In the age of satellite imagery and remote control drones it is easy to identify who the bad actors are and destroy whatever necessary to halt the attacks. I'd prefer a peaceful solution but these attacks will continue into the foreseeable future.

This is a profitable business. I shudder to think where all the money from these raids is going. The more time we give them, the more time they have to organize, upgrade, and cause harm.

[Fragony]

But perhaps you don't think sovereignty, jurisdiction, responsability, legitimacy and accountability are worth considering?

Dutch army aren't cowboys, there has to be a very good reason if they consider using deadly force. Does raise the question of why here and why now, passengers weren't in acute danger so what's on the ship.

[rvg]

Well done, Dutchies. Well done indeed.

[al Roumi]

This is a profitable business. I shudder to think where all the money from these raids is going. The more time we give them, the more time they have to organize, upgrade, and cause harm.

Land Cruisers and wives I seem to remember reading... I understand the massive payouts the piracy has provided have completely inflated the local bride-prices (dowry), pricing out non-pirates and driving up the reasons to engage in a bit of filibustering... No source to hand, but will see if I can get one at some point.

[Fragony]

Moar pirate related fun http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe2_1269809181

Well would you

[Vladimir]

Moar pirate related fun http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe2_1269809181

Well would you

Meet Sexy Women in your Area!

All I got out of that article is something about meeting sexy Dutch women.

Hat tip to Banquo and Mr. P.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And that Pirates will even attempt a raid on a Naval frigate to meet them, if only accidentally.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Bah. All this talk of escalating violence ignores the fact that pirates are looking for easy targets, not shootouts.

I remember when the Maersk Alabama was hijacked and the captain captured, and how so many people said it'd be terrible for crews to resist with gunfire. How it would lead to more violence from the pirates and dead crew.

But then pirates again attacked the Alabama and the crew (including private security forces) responded with gunfire and repelled the pirates. The crew members came out ahead, as none of them were kidnapped.

Even in that article some pansy foreign type moans about how the shipping community is 'solidly against' something proven to work, because of the 'idea' that states are supposed to provide security, and, I suppose, if they aren't doing that well enough you're just supposed to suffer and not try to protect yourself.

And yes, we should go to the pirate enclaves and sink a bunch of ships. Barbarism leads to more barbarism? BAH! These pirates are practically granted sanctuary. If they found repercussions extending beyond the immediate time of the attack, they'd go into something less dangerous. It's a simple balance of incentives.

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

Of course. Because running around the world murdering random people with no due process and deeming them guilty by association/intention/existence just because you can, and need fear no reprisals, is the mark of a civilised nation. How silly of me to have thought otherwise.

[rory_20_uk]

There is no definition of civilised nation. Some uncivilised ones are very soft, some civilised ones are brutal.

A modern civillised nation gets its knickers in a twist worrying about the perceived rights of everybody except those living within its borders, who are to be viewed as criminals in the making and are to be spied on constantly.

We get to the point where UK citizens are shot by mistake whilst running for a train, and pirates are unstoppable.

Employ competent captains (surely commanding a warship and attendant sailors they have to be?) with the ability for autonomous action.

When training a dog you utilise punishments that are understood, which are different to those employed with children. Since citations aren't going to work, 9mm cannon will be required.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What good would hammering a pirate village do? Short of extermination, you'd only be (at best) smashing one set of pests. The problem would recur and deterrence would be minimal. The basic metric is: a) live in squalor in a failed state with poor resources, or b) kip over on a boat and take that big freighter out there, netting much money from the company who'd rather pay you than keep an expensive ship idling. Smashing the odd pirate nest does not address this.

With the Barbary pirates, there were locals to be suborned, specific acknowledged political leaders involved, a power structure to be influenced....the modern version is more akin to Malaccan corsairs -- no infrastructure of importance to hit.

By all means, hang any caught in the act; defend ships rather than play the extortion game; sink, take or burn any that can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt to be pirating or aiding and abetting same.

Punitive for the sake of punitive is likely to backfire and, as Banquo rightly notes, is morally unjustifiable.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Of course. Because running around the world murdering random people with no due process and deeming them guilty by association/intention/existence just because you can, and need fear no reprisals, is the mark of a civilised nation. How silly of me to have thought otherwise.

I talk about sinking ships - putting holes in inanimate objects - and you liken that to running around the world randomly murdering people? That's one of the most imrpessive strawmen I've ever seen.

Obviously you'd want to sink the pirate ships.

CR

[rory_20_uk]

As you rightly point out the current options are squalor or pop on a boat and grab some hard currency. Worst case you get to visit another country for a bit.

If a significant percentage of pirates did not return home the perceptions would change about the risk:benefit.

Hammering villages only indicates that there is almost equal risk on going to sea as staying on land and is counter productive.

[Pannonian]

As you rightly point out the current options are squalor or pop on a boat and grab some hard currency. Worst case you get to visit another country for a bit.

If a significant percentage of pirates did not return home the perceptions would change about the risk:benefit.

Hammering villages only indicates that there is almost equal risk on going to sea as staying on land and is counter productive.

Pompey's solution was to resettle them in inland areas elsewhere where there were other ways to make a livelihood.