StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[TinCow]

I'd just like to state right here, before this is resolved, that I will *not* be providing any sort of information to Beskar even if he is lynched and ends up surviving. This will be out of protest for the system that I know is bound to materialize.

QFT

Also, I would like to emphasize again that Sigurd does not allow this to happen. This was attempted in Midgard I and Sigurd responded by secretly providing all mafia with real cover role PMs to allow them to blend in. In Midgard II, Sigurd gave all mafioso cover role PMs right at the start of the game to prevent a mass-reveal from catching them. Even if Sigurd did not provide cover role PMs at the start of this game, I guarantee you that if a mass-reveal was attempted, he will ensure that it is useless.

[TheFlax]

I'd just like to state right here, before this is resolved, that I will *not* be providing any sort of information to Beskar even if he is lynched and ends up surviving. This will be out of protest for the system that I know is bound to materialize.

[Csargo]

So, why are you guys all voting Beskar?

[Beskar]

As I explained to you earlier, I am quite convinced that ten thousand more star systems will rally to our cause with your support, gentlemen.

[GeneralHankerchief]

So, why are you guys all voting Beskar?

I could get up on my soapbox and explain, but nobody wants to hear that. Long story short, it's an issue of principle for me more than anything else.

[Renata]

I want to hear. *pulls up a chair*

[TinCow]

I want to hear. *pulls up a chair*

Mass-role reveals are game-breaking. They ruin the fun and defeat the purpose of the game.

[Csargo]

I could get up on my soapbox and explain, but nobody wants to hear that. Long story short, it's an issue of principle for me more than anything else.

100% sure he won't die. I'm going to go back to posting inane smileys now. :O

[Beskar]

I could get up on my soapbox and explain, but nobody wants to hear that. Long story short, it's an issue of principle for me more than anything else.

Your fury makes you strong, perhaps even stronger than me.

[Renata]

Speaking from recent experience they are quite a lot of fun when you happen to be one of the people doing the breaking. :) But not so much for everybody else, I agree. I have no objections towards anyone who holds their information back from Beskar out of principle, whether Sigurd can be counted on to have taken proper precautions against such things or not. GH seemed to suggest his last comment was on the matter of voting for Beskar, though; that's what I wanted to hear about.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yeah, lets lynch beskar to test the unlynchable thing, and then not trust him. Anyone can be turned to the dark side. His request for power and information shows he is already on that path.

[Subotan]

Mass-role reveals are game-breaking. They ruin the fun and defeat the purpose of the game.

And as Shadow Fort shows, useless and borderline dangerous if we're dealing with a faction that can recruit [Assuming that the Sith can recruit, which is likely]

[Beskar]

Yeah, lets lynch beskar to test the unlynchable thing, and then not trust him. Anyone can be turned to the dark side. His request for power and information shows he is already on that path.

It doesn't work like that. You have to do dark-acts to become suspectible to the dark side.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Speaking from recent experience they are quite a lot of fun when you happen to be one of the people doing the breaking. :) But not so much for everybody else, I agree. I have no objections towards anyone who holds their information back from Beskar out of principle, whether Sigurd can be counted on to have taken proper precautions against such things or not. GH seemed to suggest his last comment was on the matter of voting for Beskar, though; that's what I wanted to hear about.

Okay, fair enough. But the two points are connected.

For me, this round, possibly even this game (though that remains to be seen) is no longer about finding the mafia and winning the game. This is quickly becoming one of those times where the meta implications of a move outweigh the particular game. My vote is partially to take Beskar's bait, true. But the other part is out of protest of his action. If he survives, and sets up the all-powerful protown network, one of two things will happen. First, Sigurd's precautions will come in effect, making everybody look silly and give me bad memories of this game just as Midgard II did. Second, as has been alluded to, the protown network will become so powerful that the game won't turn out to be fun for anybody save for Beskar and maybe a lieutenant or two of his.

I thought that this was the general conclusion the .Org had come to after we had just finished up with the back-to-back network-heavy games of Capo III and Pirate Ship Mafia. The mafia's defeat in Capo III was inevitable from very early on, and I had to step in and rescue Pirate Ship midway through from the same fate. Basically, here's how the game goes when one of these networks emerges: Wait a round or two, network gets established, network grows in power, game becomes network vs. everybody else, players get whittled down as per the network's whims, last suspect killed, network wins. Members of network slap each other on the back afterwards and say "good job" and then all of them except maybe the uppermost tier of the network goes home secretly unfulfilled because, despite their victory, the game wasn't fun. It was just them following orders and there's really no satisfaction to be gained from that, and I'm not even mentioning the players on the outside of the network because they had no chance in the first place.

Fight me if I'm wrong, but I'm of the novel group of people that want to have fun when they're playing games. Let's play the game the way it was meant to be played and insert a little drama while we find and kill the Sith, eh? And if this means that one round and one possible pro-town role has to be sacrificed in the name of playing the game the right way, so be it.

[Beskar]

Fight me if I'm wrong, but I'm of the novel group of people that want to have fun when they're playing games. Let's play the game the way it was meant to be played and insert a little drama while we find and kill the Sith, eh? And if this means that one round and one possible pro-town role has to be sacrificed in the name of playing the game the right way, so be it.

If you lynch me now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

[atheotes]

Okay, fair enough. But the two points are connected.

For me, this round, possibly even this game (though that remains to be seen) is no longer about finding the mafia and winning the game. This is quickly becoming one of those times where the meta implications of a move outweigh the particular game. My vote is partially to take Beskar's bait, true. But the other part is out of protest of his action. If he survives, and sets up the all-powerful protown network, one of two things will happen. First, Sigurd's precautions will come in effect, making everybody look silly and give me bad memories of this game just as Midgard II did. Second, as has been alluded to, the protown network will become so powerful that the game won't turn out to be fun for anybody save for Beskar and maybe a lieutenant or two of his.

I thought that this was the general conclusion the .Org had come to after we had just finished up with the back-to-back network-heavy games of Capo III and Pirate Ship Mafia. The mafia's defeat in Capo III was inevitable from very early on, and I had to step in and rescue Pirate Ship midway through from the same fate. Basically, here's how the game goes when one of these networks emerges: Wait a round or two, network gets established, network grows in power, game becomes network vs. everybody else, players get whittled down as per the network's whims, last suspect killed, network wins. Members of network slap each other on the back afterwards and say "good job" and then all of them except maybe the uppermost tier of the network goes home secretly unfulfilled because, despite their victory, the game wasn't fun. It was just them following orders and there's really no satisfaction to be gained from that, and I'm not even mentioning the players on the outside of the network because they had no chance in the first place.

Fight me if I'm wrong, but I'm of the novel group of people that want to have fun when they're playing games. Let's play the game the way it was meant to be played and insert a little drama while we find and kill the Sith, eh? And if this means that one round and one possible pro-town role has to be sacrificed in the name of playing the game the right way, so be it.

[Methos]

If you lynch me now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

This makes me wonder if he lied to Secura about being unlynchable, therefore making me want to lynch him even more.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Basically, here's how the game goes when one of these networks emerges: Wait a round or two, network gets established, network grows in power, game becomes network vs. everybody else, players get whittled down as per the network's whims, last suspect killed, network wins. Members of network slap each other on the back afterwards and say "good job" and then all of them except maybe the uppermost tier of the network goes home secretly unfulfilled because, despite their victory, the game wasn't fun. It was just them following orders and there's really no satisfaction to be gained from that, and I'm not even mentioning the players on the outside of the network because they had no chance in the first place.

Yeah, this is the problem with networks. Organization, efficiency, and orders. If you don't come up with an explicit strategy that everyone follows it works out great.

But honestly, from what Sigurd said I don't think there are many power roles. He said "very few active at night". So any pro town network will be ineffective.

CR had a few innovations that work very well too.

[Renata]

@ GH:

The only place I really object to you is where you say "the way the game was meant to be played". If Sigurd put in a confirmable role, then given he is not an inexperienced GM, he must mean it to be there. He must mean it to be used the way all of us expect it will be (both the compliant people and the ones who aren't; both the positives and the negatives). Assuming Beskar's telling the truth, I don't think you can make the argument that his pending confirmation and whatever comes of that is not the way THIS game is meant to be played. I think it quite clearly is.

The question of fun, which is where I come very close to agreeing with you, is a separate issue. So basically I'm just not quite comfortable with the judgment implied in "how the game is meant to be played". Role-heavy games are always, to some extent, going to be divorced from pure blissfully-ignorant scum-hunting, from the simple paradigm of uninformed majority vs informed minority. They can and do often work wonderfully despite that, but it's just the nature of the beast that they are played (and meant to be played) differently from pure-vanilla games.

Erm, sorry soapbox. :) I just find this stuff fun to talk about while we're waiting for Beskar to get strung up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Sigurd has made the concept of a pro-town network look silly in two of his previous games. Either it's going to happen again or the combination of an unlynchable role and another powerful network will overcome it. Neither outcome is in my best interests, the former being in-character and the latter being out of character.

I don't doubt Sigurd's acumen when it comes to hosting and balancing, but nobody's perfect. Lord knows I made a ton of errors in Pirate Ship.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

A day phase where everybody participates and a night phase where very few participate.

Also, I have a feeling this is a different than usual game.

[Yaropolk]

If you lynch me now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Awesome, I want our Jedi Master to become more powerful than I can possibly imagine - and I can possibly imagine our Jedi Master becoming quite powerful - almost as powerful as my possible imagination allows me!

Unvote; Vote: Beskar

[Csargo]

Sigurd has made the concept of a pro-town network look silly in two of his previous games. Either it's going to happen again or the combination of an unlynchable role and another powerful network will overcome it. Neither outcome is in my best interests, the former being in-character and the latter being out of character.

I don't doubt Sigurd's acumen when it comes to hosting and balancing, but nobody's perfect. Lord knows I made a ton of errors in Pirate Ship.

If you lynch him twice he'll most likely die.

[Thermal]

Mass-role reveals are game-breaking. They ruin the fun and defeat the purpose of the game.

Yes, I won't be part of any pro-town network.

It may have worked once before now, but they aren't usually a good idea, one mafia slips through and the game is screwed over for Town.

[Renata]

Like Sigurd in Capo?

[Subotan]

@GH

I'm glad to see that you're expressing the same thoughts which I've had about networks which have become even more pronounced since Shadow Fort (So I'm spiteful so what). Networks end up taking "If you're not with us, you're against us" strategy, with the the non-networked townies just becoming fuel for the network machine. This is a problem, since my game will be a modified version of PSM, with an even bigger officer corps, and thus a stronger network. Political leadership, promotion and cliques are all fundamental concepts in my game. However, I have designed several measures that should if used successfully "break" the network, from several directions. I aim to see multiple pro-town networks competing against each other, along with the mafias.

Those are just my immediate thoughts.

[Andres]

Long story short, it's an issue of principle for me more than anything else.

Idem here.

Town network is not fun. I behaved erratically in Pirate Ship Mafia because I refused to work with a town network out of principle.

Besides, everyone can turn to the Dark Side, even a Jedi Master, so why should we give him all information to see him turn to the Dark Side and lead us to our doom?

If you lynch me now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

We'll see about that.

Unvote; Vote : Beskar

[Diamondeye]

any talk of role reveal or townie network should wait till the phase is over and Beskar's role can be ascertained.

This

Beskar's the whole reason the town won Swords and D20s 3; he uncovered and named every single person and their respective roles to the host within a day of joining the game. And he joined one day after everyone else as it is. His boasting in-thread was a little irksome, but it was warranted I think.

This was precisely the reason I wanted Beskar's claims proven; if he was lying, we bagged a Sith, and if he was telling the truth, we have someone to rally around.

I read it as a win-win, but your mileage may well vary.

I love your TVTropes references, Secura. Keep them coming

Mass-role reveals are game-breaking. They ruin the fun and defeat the purpose of the game.

Agree. Ruins the game. I don't like it :(

Your fury makes you strong, perhaps even stronger than me.

Has anyone else noticed Beskar talking like he is quoting someone? He might be trying to hint to his personality, although it's about to become irrelevant...

[Husar]

If you lynch him twice he'll most likely die.

That comment is either very clever or very clever, if not then a sith, like Csargo for example, would have one round more where he does not have to worry about being lynched.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I request all roles to fully reveal to me after this lynch phase

Uh, NO.

No, we can trust him with some things, but no. If this guy can turn to the dark side, you guys are shafting yourselves. No no no no no no no. I'm up for just about anything Beskar, but 2 things: (A) Not balanced and (B) too dangerous. This is coming from mister pro-town network, lynch me if you don't like it.