The Revenge of Inishmore! [Concluded]

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Why'd you omit the other part of my post, Sasaki?

If they avoided killing YLC because he was a probably doc protect, then how does having a partner of his claim condemn that guy to death? It's still a high chance of doc protect.

[Zack]

vote: Chaotix

That was ridiculous.

[ULC]

Hey now, don't start another bandwagon rolling on such flimsy basis! Have we all gone daft and decided to twitch vote so much? Sure what Chaotix did wasn't right, but I don't think that's grounds to lynch him. People have done worse and have gone unchecked.

My vote stays on Subotan because of his attitude and eagerness to jump on such a bandwagon - and I'm going to start watching others who do the same. To many people are getting away with it.

[ULC]

If they avoided killing YLC because he was a probably doc protect, then how does having a partner of his claim condemn that guy to death? It's still a high chance of doc protect.

Again, Sasaki, your missing the point. I am not revealing innocents, one way or another, and nor would I ask them to reveal themselves. If I revealed 1 partner, one of us will die - what was the net gain? That we've tied down the doctor infinitely and fed the mafia an easy kill?

Nor am I asking blind trust - all I can say is that I am a mason, and that's that. From there, it's up to you to decide.

[Csargo]

Hey now, don't start another bandwagon rolling on such flimsy basis! Have we all gone daft and decided to twitch vote so much? Sure what Chaotix did wasn't right, but I don't think that's grounds to lynch him. People have done worse and have gone unchecked.

My vote stays on Subotan because of his attitude and eagerness to jump on such a bandwagon - and I'm going to start watching others who do the same. To many people are getting away with it.

On the basis of lying? I thought that's how we usually picked lynch targets? That or random bandwagons.

[ULC]

On the basis of lying? I thought that's how we usually picked lynch targets? That or random bandwagons.

So we go with the blatantly obvious lie? I thought we discussed, investigated (not the night action), probed, and attempted to catch people in lies? Or are we just going to hop on the first bandwagon and call it a day?

[Renata]

If they avoided killing YLC because he was a probably doc protect, then how does having a partner of his claim condemn that guy to death? It's still a high chance of doc protect.

How many docs do you think we have, exactly? Every additional claim increases the chance any given claimed player will not be protected, and that's not even taking into account the multiple kills each night. Assume the mafia shoot at both claimed masons and get one -- is this a bad thing for them? Not in my book.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

How many docs do you think we have, exactly? Every additional claim increases the chance any given claimed player will not be protected, and that's not even taking into account the multiple kills each night. Assume the mafia shoot at both claimed masons and get one -- is this a bad thing for them? Not in my book.

One way to do it is to wait until a later round before asking YLC's partner to claim.

But the fact that masons don't make particularly great targets (mafia will be looking for detectives etc), and that the mafia may shy away from a possible doc protect (50% is not good odds really), heck there may even by a watcher role which would ID anyone attacking a mason.

All in all, it sounds more like YLC doesn't have any mason partner.

[Renata]

vote Split

For the second time. I don't like the way he popped up quite soon after my vote against him, only to disappear again.

[ULC]

I am going to bed, I'll check in on the thread later when I get up, but as for now I need to sleep.

I am sorry Sasaki I can't convince you of my innocence or of my role, but I am sticking by my story. If the mafia want to target me, then they can do so if they wish, but I'm not handing them any of my partners.

[Renata]

You don't feel scummy to me Sasaki, but I don't see it the way you do, at all.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

But see, that's just it. It's not you who would hand over your partners. You being convinced that it's not the right course of action for them to be revealed, does not explain their lack of reveal. In most of the mason reveals I've seen, one of the partners has voluntarily confirmed the reveal. So why haven't they? You mystically persuaded them not too? They prefer to let their partner be lynched?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Vote:Yaseikhaan

Workin' my way down The List.

CR

[Greyblades]

Vote: Sasaki.

[Askthepizzaguy]

vote: Sasaki

You're pressing too hard for a mason to reveal. YLC makes for an easy investigation or roleblock either tonight or at some random night in the near future.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

vote: Sasaki

You're pressing too hard for a mason to reveal. YLC makes for an easy investigation or roleblock either tonight or at some random night in the near future.

How do you know YLC is a mason?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't know that he is, but the game set-up is 5 mafia and 16 other roles. As creative as the host is, I sincerely doubt he came up with 16 unique roles without throwing in a mason partner or two. There's only so many doctors and detectives you can have before it becomes imbalanced.

I also don't feel like pulling down the pants of all the masons in public so that the mafia can more easily target other roles.

[Methos]

Bah, posted prematurely.

Sasaki, why are you pressing for masons to reveal themselves in-thread?

Yes, I'm wondering that too. While I can agree with a lot of what Sasaki is saying, I find it rather scummy that he's trying to get all the masons to out themselves, assuming there are masons. Especially with three kills a night.

Vote: Subotan

I investigated him and he is mafia.

No, not really. I was joking.

Vote: Chaotix

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't know that he is, but the game set-up is 5 mafia and 16 other roles. As creative as the host is, I sincerely doubt he came up with 16 unique roles without throwing in a mason partner or two. There's only so many doctors and detectives you can have before it becomes imbalanced.

I also don't feel like pulling down the pants of all the masons in public so that the mafia can more easily target other roles.

All we need is one of his partners to confirm. Not asking for that is like letting someone claim roleblocker, but not asking them to reveal their results. It's simple due diligence.

At best we reveal and lynch a mafioso, at worst we lynch someone else and the mafia improve their odds of hitting a more important role by a miniscule degree.

[Askthepizzaguy]

In my calculation, having 2 exposed masons makes even easier pickings for the mafia to take out. Dead masons are useless to us, especially so early.

I'm not sold on it. In my view there are more negatives than positives when we could just scan YLC.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I don't see why you are worried about the slight odds improvements for the mafia in kill choice, but not worried about the odds decrease for the cop if he has to waste an investigation on YLC.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't see why you are worried about the slight odds improvements for the mafia in kill choice, but not worried about the odds decrease for the cop if he has to waste an investigation on YLC.

It's not that I am not, but if YLC is going to be alive from this point on, one of the claimed masons (minimum) needs to be scanned to make sure. So he's going to have to scan YLC anyway in my view. If 2 masons claim, but no one scans them, then they could just as easily be two mafia. I find that the odds of 2 mafia claiming just to cover YLC so early to be rather bad, compared with the plausibility of the claim. And to remove more doubt, he can be scanned, and would need to be scanned anyway.

I don't see any additional benefit, or even any gained time, from having a second claimant. Can you demonstrate otherwise? I'm skeptical but not immovable on this point.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The benefit to my view, is that we lynch YLC because he's mafia and no one claims to save him. The biggest mark against him is that he tried to act like whether his partners revealed was entirely up to him, and that they would not be doing so under any circumstances. Why would that be? If they don't claim to stop a mislynch it is likely that they don't exist.

[Myrddraal]

I think Sasaki would be making more sense later in the game. Right now, we can easily keep an eye on YLC, he's almost invited an investigation. I don't believe he's mafia, but even if there was a chance that he is, that can be confirmed at night. One investigation is worth it to protect a mason group from being revealed imo.

[Diamondeye]

vote: diamondeye
why sb

I wanted to poke him awake. When did he post in this thread last, exactly?

In my calculation, having 2 exposed masons makes even easier pickings for the mafia to take out. Dead masons are useless to us, especially so early.

I'm not sold on it. In my view there are more negatives than positives when we could just scan YLC.

I agree with this . Also, I almost convinced myself of switching votes to YLC to end this damn issue but I think we're better off letting him be investigated and lynching a lurker or someone else. Chaotix, perhaps?
FoS: Chaotix

[TinCow]

Dead masons are useless to us, especially so early.

You and Myddraal make a decent point, but it does seem a bit odd to be going through all this trouble for a simple mason. Unless I'm totally missing something, a mason is no better than a townie except that he's got an alibi to get out of a lynching. If YLC really is a mason, an investigation would be wasted on him when it could be used looking for scum. If he is a mason, he has the means to avoid such a needless waste of a lynch phase and an investigation. Weighing this in my head, I find more value in a lynch and an investigation than I do in the identity of a proven townie. I'm just not seeing the advantage in YLC's partner keeping his mouth shut, which makes me believe he doesn't have one.

[Scienter]

vote: slashandburn I wonder if YLC's "partner" is just lurking or not paying attention. If no one speaks up, we can always lynch him the next day.

[Renata]

Yes, I'm wondering that too. While I can agree with a lot of what Sasaki is saying, I find it rather scummy that he's trying to get all the masons to out themselves, assuming there are masons. Especially with three kills a night.

(snip quote)

Vote: Chaotix

Why vote Chaotix when you think Sasaki is scummy? For making a joke? Do you think he's mafia?

[Renata]

You and Myddraal make a decent point, but it does seem a bit odd to be going through all this trouble for a simple mason. Unless I'm totally missing something, a mason is no better than a townie except that he's got an alibi to get out of a lynching. If YLC really is a mason, an investigation would be wasted on him when it could be used looking for scum. If he is a mason, he has the means to avoid such a needless waste of a lynch phase and an investigation. Weighing this in my head, I find more value in a lynch and an investigation than I do in the identity of a proven townie. I'm just not seeing the advantage in YLC's partner keeping his mouth shut, which makes me believe he doesn't have one.

YLC's not just BS-ing about the value of a group of confirmed-to-each-other innocents all working on figuring out the game together. It's not an insignificant thing, much as I believe the mis-lynch thing is also important.

The more I think about the situation in this particular game, with the multiple deaths, the lack of private reveals, and all, the more I think I would do the exact same thing YLC is doing, if I were in the position he claims to be in. He could certainly be mafia, but I don't think -- I REALLY don't think -- you can look to his refusal to name his partners (or their refusal to confirm him) as evidence toward that. If anyone arguing against him wants to convince me, you'll have to come up with something else.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I guess I've just never seen mason partners not confirm one of their claimed buddies.