StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Looks like it.

Edit: This was reply to Kage's question.

[Renata]

Looks like someone stopped Beskar using his powers. Not that it mattered since now we know he is not a Sith.

For all that I still find it hard to account for it if he is -- we do?

[Renata]

Yes, Methos was Mace Windu, which makes Andres Aayla Secura.

[Kagemusha]

I dont know whats happening behind the scenes, but apparently a lot.Andres did you have any personal communications with any of the people Renata mentioned in her post? Also Csargo to whom of these you were in contact with?

Namely:

Renata
Niklas
Beskar
Secura.

[Niklas]

I confirm everything Renata has said. Only one thing:

And Secura also was fishing strongly about it, Niklas says.

To be fair, "fishing strongly" is perhaps putting too much emotion into it. She asked me about Mace Windu, and about Renata's contact with him, but did not mention Methos by name.

Still, I share Renata's suspicions (or she mine), and would like Beskar and Secura to explain thoroughly their activities and relation, with others and with each other.

Also, who did what to Beskar last night? That person might know more. Please tell what happened, in public or in private.

[Niklas]

Also Csargo to whom of these you were in contact with?

Renata
Niklas
Beskar
Secura.

This one is easy, all four of us were present when he mentioned his ability. That said, looking at the logs it appears that Beskar was already aware before that conversation started, meaning Csargo may have had further contact with him prior to that. May or may not mean anything.

[Andres]

Beskar should be lynched for the following reasons:

a) he revealed information to another player at the beginning of the game: suspicious;
b) he knows how to use the Force, he used it to escape death at the first lynch attempt, while it is clear that even the Jedi Masters are just slowly getting in touch with the Force. From how I interpreted the write-ups, it seems to me that the Masters are slowly gaining abilities, but didn't reach the level and competences Count Dooku showed in his lynch write-up;
c) he is Count Dooku; another indication that our friend Beskar is not exactly good;
d) he claims to be "neutral", perfect cover for a mafioso;
e) his very aggressive playstyle is helping to prevent us from lynching him. He probably has been a bit too aggressive, but I know Beskar enough to know that he's not afraid of acting like this if it would save his skin;
f) Beskar will remain a distraction for town for as long as he lives, we need to get it over with so that we can focus more on other things. Lynch him, then look into other players, I suggest Belisarius II and Secura.
g) Strange coincidences in the kill choice, too many Masters dieing and we all know Beskar was in contact with Jedi Masters. Either it's a frame attempt or the "small network" is infested with mafia, most likely Beskar.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe Beskar was role blocked somehow? I wonder Beskar were you thinking of making investigations last night? To me Beskar is becoming so obvious lynch bait that he might be innocent afterall. That can be judged in the future by the actual contributions he can do for the town or lack of those which will no doubt cause him to be lynched. Right now im thinking couple variations mafia could have done. The more obvious one is that indeed some player close to Beskar is mafia and he got the info about Methos from Beskies network. Other possibility is that the mafia could be working on discrediting Beskies network by making it look scummy. The second option seems kind of far fetched. Unless other players with knowledge who Mace Windu was will surface.

[Husar]

It's perfectly possible that Beskar is pro-town until he kills, but then he could still work with the mafia, rat out the other jedis and jedi masters, then vig-kill towards the end of the game, join the Sith and enjoy their three-man victory. IF he is lynch-immune until he turns Sith though, that would be a bit of an inconvenience for the town because the only way to win in the above scenario would be to kill the other two Sith prior to his conversion, towards the end there obviously tends to be a lack of townies.
I'm not sure another lynch-attempt now would give any better results than the first, like I said, maybe he only becomes lynchable when he converts, you can give it another try but lynching someone else who is a Sith would be preferable IMO, just too bad that noone knows who is a Sith.

[Renata]

Beskar should be lynched for the following reasons:

a) he revealed information to another player at the beginning of the game: suspicious;

Agreed.

b) he knows how to use the Force, he used it to escape death at the first lynch attempt, while it is clear that even the Jedi Masters are just slowly getting in touch with the Force. From how I interpreted the write-ups, it seems to me that the Masters are slowly gaining abilities, but didn't reach the level and competences Count Dooku showed in his lynch write-up;

This one is largely based on false premises. Beskar's lynch-escape ability is not unique. He claimed to have been called on Night Zero. Methos was called on Night One and received abilities that are almost entirely congruent with what Beskar claims, only (perhaps -- Methos may have misled me) less extensive. (Him wanting me to compare his newfound talents to Beskar's is how Beskar came to know that I knew who Mace Windu was, btw.)

c) he is Count Dooku; another indication that our friend Beskar is not exactly good;

Since I've put myself up as a lynch candidate already anyway, I'm just gong to say flat out that this is a false assumption. The background information for my own character is rife with Sith taint, but I am town.

d) he claims to be "neutral", perfect cover for a mafioso;

He doesn't; in fact, he's denied it up, down and sideways. Others have claimed to believe he is neutral.

e) his very aggressive playstyle is helping to prevent us from lynching him. He probably has been a bit too aggressive, but I know Beskar enough to know that he's not afraid of acting like this if it would save his skin;

Maybe. You might give too little credit to the people who have refused to put his name in bold.

f) Beskar will remain a distraction for town for as long as he lives, we need to get it over with so that we can focus more on other things. Lynch him, then look into other players, I suggest Belisarius II and Secura.

To a large extent this distraction is not his doing, but that of others, which makes it no less true. But I will not lynch someone I think is town without extraordinary reason, and I'm still leaning that way with Beskar. What I'm personally more concerned with is the mafia having left him alive so long *because he has been useful*.

g) Strange coincidences in the kill choice, too many Masters dieing and we all know Beskar was in contact with Jedi Masters. Either it's a frame attempt or the "small network" is infested with mafia, most likely Beskar.

Without knowing exactly how many Masters we began with the sheer numbers don't tell us much. But at a minimum Csargo and Methos -- yes. It has to be considered very likely that Beskar has a serious leak.

[Kagemusha]

Well i guess the best way to get people talking is starting bandwagon against them.Vote: Secura. What is your take on the deaths of Csargo and Methos?

[Secura]

And Secura also was fishing strongly about it, Niklas says.

Ummm, what is this about Niklas? Fishing strongly? That's utter carp and you know it... I asked for his thoughts on the matter, that was all, not "LULZ WHO IZ IT NAOW".

That's a group of four people who knew or are extremely likely to have suspected that Methos was Mace Windu

I didn't know that Methos was Mace Windu; I spoke to him last night over MSN regarding Chinese Zodiac and Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, and we discussed very little about this game; he can come back later to clarify. Furthermore, Beskar and myself have not discussed this game over the last twenty-four hours or so; he has been in a boastful mood about R&R HoF, and I don't really like talking to him about mafia when that is the case.

Secura is giving me bad vibes mostly: her claim not to have noticed Csargo's comments on MSN (see Niklas' vote of her yesterday) is difficult to believe.

I did genuinely not pay attention to it; I felt the claim was questionable at best and ignored it and at the time I was concerned for Pizza after the... situation he had earlier in the day.

I was also at Beskar's where my full attention is never on a subject at hand; there is a previous game thread where Beskar chatises me in-public because I kept interrupting a game we were playing to check these forums, speaks volumes.

Furthermore, I have a considerable amount of real life worries that take precedence, principally the fact that I'm not currently employed and have a number of debts to pay off before I can even consider completing my degree. There are a multitude of reasons why I glossed over Csargo's claim.

It was only refreshed in my memory when Niklas brought it up; believe it or not, your choice.

[Niklas]

Ummm, what is this about Niklas? Fishing strongly? That's utter carp and you know it... I asked for his thoughts on the matter, that was all, not "LULZ WHO IZ IT NAOW".

Indeed, which I also clarified a few posts up. I suggest you read the whole thread before answering.

[Secura]

What is your take on the deaths of Csargo and Methos?

Myself and Beskar had a suspect in mind for the death of Csargo.

As for Methos, I didn't know who he was.

[Secura]

Indeed, which I also clarified a few posts up. I suggest you read the whole thread before answering.

I read your post also, but it doesn't change the fact that it makes it look as though I was poking around asking questions about his identity and such, when that simply wasn't the case.

[Secura]

Oh, I recall what Methos asked me about this game last night; "why is Beskar asking to change his orders?", the answer to which I did not know.

He ceased discussing it after that.

[naut]

Andres Aayla Secura?

He was role-playing a Twi'lek earlier.

[Andres]

Without knowing exactly how many Masters we began with the sheer numbers don't tell us much. But at a minimum Csargo and Methos -- yes. It has to be considered very likely that Beskar has a serious leak.

Or he is the leak himself...

Out of your "group" or "network", who's the one who was most careless with information? That's probably the Sith among you. From how it looks, it seems to be Beskar. It would also make sense for him to already kill off the masters he knows, since it's clear that he'll end up lynched sooner or later; so why restrain from killing known masters to save himself as he's virtually dead already.

@Husar: it's possible that Masters are unlynchable as long as they don't convert, but that has the potential of seriously unbalancing the game in favour of the Sith; work for the Sith for the entire game and convert last minute to be on the winning side. I don't think Sigurd would allow that.

[Kagemusha]

It could also be that Beskar made a huge mistake by creating his network while not being Sith. If all the Jedi masters revealed to him, while a Sith made the same thing with faking to be a jedi master. In worst case scenario it could mean the Sith faction knows the identity of all the Jedi masters because of the reckless sharing of information.

[Andres]

I got a ruling from Sigurd that says the dead are allowed to communicate in private. Since I got night killed, I'm confirmed innocent.

I'd like to see some information: role pm's, night actions, pm conversations. Preferably here in the thread, in private if you must. I reserve the right to post the stuff you pm me here in the thread.

Who knew or probably could know that Methos and Csargo were Masters is the information I'm most interested in.

[Secura]

He was role-playing a Twi'lek earlier.

He was roleplaying a Twi'lek well, but not Secura... :P

Out of your "group" or "network", who's the one who was most careless with information? That's probably the Sith among you. From how it looks, it seems to be Beskar. It would also make sense for him to already kill off the masters he knows, since it's clear that he'll end up lynched sooner or later; so why restrain from killing known masters to save himself as he's virtually dead already.

I believe that Beskar attempted to scope out the 'leak' last night, but was roleblocked.

[Kagemusha]

I got a ruling from Sigurd that says the dead are allowed to communicate in private. Since I got night killed, I'm confirmed innocent.

I'd like to see some information: role pm's, night actions, pm conversations. Preferably here in the thread, in private if you must. I reserve the right to post the stuff you pm me here in the thread.

Who knew or probably could know that Methos and Csargo were Masters is the information I'm most interested in.

If thats the case.It is crucial for Methos and Csargo to reveal your contacts.I think you should do that privately to Andres as going public might give out information that could be usefull to Sith.

[Andres]

He was roleplaying a Twi'lek well, but not Secura... :P

Maybe I was playing your alter ego

I believe that Beskar attempted to scope out the 'leak' last night, but was roleblocked.

Do you have any idea what this "previous engagement" the write-up mentions is about? It seems to suggest that his night action didn't get blocked... It would be nice to see the content of the pm Beskar received at the end of the night.

And yours', Renata's and Niklas'... And while we're at it, Belisarius II should share some info as well.

[Secura]

Maybe I was playing your alter ego

Do you have any idea what this "previous engagement" the write-up mentions is about? It seems to suggest that his night action didn't get blocked...

I have no idea, sorry. It looked like a roleblock to me, though, especially considering the context of conversations over a day ago.

[Secura]

especially considering the context of conversations over a day ago.

I should have elaborated; Beskar informed me that he intended to investigate someone, a target that I agreed with his reasoning for, and requested that I promise not to talk to that target about the game any further, as I had told them something and been scolded for doing so; later in the evening, Beskar randomly messaged me over MSN and requested that I approach the target and inform them that they were subject to investigation that night, but I declined on the basis of the earlier-made promise.

It is possible that Beskar approached this person himself and told them, and that they roleblocked him as a result; this person is also aware of at least Csargo's claims, from what I'm told, and might have been privy to Mace Windu's identity, if Beskar had told 'em that too.

[Niklas]

I got a ruling from Sigurd that says the dead are allowed to communicate in private. Since I got night killed, I'm confirmed innocent.

I can't keep quiet about this. We've spent a good deal of energy, both here and in another thread, discussing how townie networks can take all the fun out of a game, and how measures should be induced by the host to make them less powerful. The absence of perfect trust is the most important such thing - yet now you are saying that you as a confirmed innocent intend to do just that?

I will not participate. That is based on personal conviction and a will to not see this otherwise very fun game ruined.

[Kagemusha]

I can't keep quiet about this. We've spent a good deal of energy, both here and in another thread, discussing how townie networks can take all the fun out of a game, and how measures should be induced by the host to make them less powerful. The absence of perfect trust is the most important such thing - yet now you are saying that you as a confirmed innocent intend to do just that?

I will not participate. That is based on personal conviction and a will to not see this otherwise very fun game ruined.

As far as i understand in this case the townie network can only be constructed from the killed players safely. So all the network could do would be gathering information and guiding the living based on that intel.That is far from all powerfull.

[Andres]

I can't keep quiet about this. We've spent a good deal of energy, both here and in another thread, discussing how townie networks can take all the fun out of a game, and how measures should be induced by the host to make them less powerful. The absence of perfect trust is the most important such thing - yet now you are saying that you as a confirmed innocent intend to do just that?

I will not participate. That is based on personal conviction and a will to not see this otherwise very fun game ruined.

That's right. Must have been the dark side in me Forget about pm'ing me with information; it would be a game breaker.

[Niklas]

Thank you Andres, that was very strong of you. Massive kudos.

[Andres]

As far as i understand in this case the townie network can only be constructed from the killed players safely. So all the network could do would be gathering information and guiding the living based on that intel.That is far from all powerfull.

Meh. What if the dead start organising the thing and give orders? Then we're in a situation no one likes.

That wasn't my intention, I was just looking for pm conversations to read and spot on oddities, but Niklas is right; confirmed innocents in a network, could eventually lead to confirmed innocents pulling the strings, making this game boring.

I guess people will have to post their info in this thread.