SPQR? Who?

[Watchman]

The Tartessans kind of fell apart on their own, so yeah... Also I don't recall them being particularly important in more than a regional, if not strictly local, scale. From what I understand of the relevant geographic dynamics (ie. how the trade routes were wont to run) most of the Iberian peninsula had a rather poor starting position should it have come to competing with more advantageously situated regions. For example, take the "Gallic corridor" linking the Atlantic and the Mediterranean with several fortuitiously situated major rivers and their attendant valleys (and rounding it off with some of Europe's best farmland); or the Danube communications complex linking the Baltic, the Adriatic and the Black Sea to both each other and the European interior. Or the major peninsulas of the Mediterranean interior, that is, the Apennine and Balkan ones which straddle the east-west shipping lanes. (The Southern Italy - Sicily - Tunisia region indeed forms a veritable chokepoint.) Or the Aegean-Marmara-Black Sea axis which is basically the convergence/interface point for *several* major continental-level trade routes... there's a reason Constantinopole was so fabulously rich, and why Charlemagne's short-lived empire (arguably just about the only one that could be said to have genuinely conquered the better part of the European subcontinent, if only fleetingly) grew out of the region of old Gallia.
You get the idea.

The Slavs get kind of a short shrift probably largely because when considered from the perspective of the "nexus zones" of the European subcontinent and the Mediterranean region they were and remain somewhat by the wayside. Basically, from where they started out of it would have been next to impossible to to rise to a position where they could have begun seriously affecting the "big picture", so to speak, of European and Mediterranean history what with only too many other groups being far better positioned to snatch the strategically vital key regions regions from which to grow to prominence.

[TancredTheNorman]

This is a quick reply I left out a lot but

1. The Italic Celts and Ligurians unite for the purpose of an expedition into Italy, unlike historically which involved the Romans defeating them because there is no Rome they conquer Etruria, very easily thanks to Etruscan lack of unity and willingness to hope that the Northerners are just there to take on one of them (in other words the same reason the Romans won against the Etruscans).

2. In the South of Italy the Samnites have managed to come out on top, having very similar militrary arrangements to the Romans, and often being the original source of Roman innovations by defeating the Romans, the Samnites primary problem as they become more and more successful, is the Tribes become more and more independent of each other and more and more like Nations instead of Tribes.

3. Taras has entered into a convenient treaty with the Bruttians and together are holding off Lucanians, who in turn make an Alliance with Carthage, in response the Bruttains and Greeks make an Alliance with Epirus and Syracuse, the Carthaginians counter this by entering into an Alliance with the more powerful Samnite Tribes, and becomes very influential with the Samnites.

4. Gaul and Germania see much migration, and much balance of power and war but nobody ever comes out on top, coalitions form to defeat new comers but they tend to fall apart, there are no Caesar figures to inspire a Vercingetorix.

5. In the East things are very much the same up untill the time Rome interfered so I will get back to the Diodachi later.

6. The Barcids are triumphant over the Senate thanks to popular support, and so Carthage is engaged in a war against the Greeks, but with the support of Lucanians, at first things are going very well, but the clever Greeks exploit Samnite internal differences and inspire civil war and become an ally to the Tribes least likely to turn on them, this of course forces the Carthaginians to transfer forces away from fighting Greeks to fighting Samnite ex allies, leading to a peace in favor of the pre-war divisions, nobody is happy but increasing "Barbarian" power in northern Italy has alarmed both Carthage and Epirus.

7. With the war in Italy over, the Carthaginian Senate decides to try and either gain the riches of Spain, or lose the payment due to the mercenary forces, and so sends their veterans to Spain, Taras and Syracuse being busy rebuilding their economy, while Epirus doesn't care about Spain leads to Carthaginian victory.

8. With no fear of Rome the AS finally conquer Egypt, reducing the Ptolemy Dynasty to puppet status, however because of the resources used on Egypt Attalus I has had the opportunity to assemble a host consisting of all the Greek Cities in Asia Minor, Rhodes, the finnancial support of Macedonia (without official support) Galatia, Pontos, and Parthia, the victory over Egypt is short lived as Attalus leads a mighty expedition against the forces left in Asia Minor, despite reinforcements the Selucids are decisively defeated and to commemorate the victory and acknowledging that the Galatians were essential Attalus commissions "The Conquered Gaul" depicting a Philosopher turning a savage Gaul into a civilized Greek, and his wife retires seeing that she has a new place in the woman's quarters. The Selucids save face by bringing all forces to Asia Minor and offering independence in return for a very modest amount of gold, silver, and gems, and marble, and an agreement not to invade Caria which alone remained loyal.

Back in the West the Samnites with continued help of Carthage manage to repel Barbarian Invasions, but Carthage is unable to exert more then a cultural influence, while the Lucanians and Taras fight through proxy with Bruttians.

9. Carthage faces endless insurgency in Spain, and is unable to conquer more, but even if it didn't face insurgency it wouldn't want to conquer, Carthage doesn't see the profit, it does see profit in Sicily, but Syracuse prevents Carthage from conquering the Island.

10. Attalus I is assasinated, and war becomes a plague in Asia Minor as his work all falls apart, and the Parthians or Selucids are only unable to conquer Asia Minor thanks to being each other's enemies, the Ptolemy Dynasty remains a puppet state because of how much resources it spent losing to the Selucids earlier.

11. As the West never produces anything equivalent to Rome, and the East, and North Africa are the areas of the ancient world's greatness. Christianity never spreads because the conditions for it are horrible, Islam never rises because of no Christianity, the Dark Ages still happen as there are as many wars between independent nations and tribes as civil wars in the Dominate. The difference is there is a lot less lost, progress has been very slow in the context of never ending warfare, there is no pax romana, but there is the saving grace that unlike Ancient Rome, some of these ancient civilizations endure in the Dark Age and prosper in a sea of barbarian invasions. Carthage with it's great fleet and impenetrable walls is not left ungarrissoned so remains a great trading power, the Samnites, and other Southern Italic tribes do collapse, as does Sicily, and there is no more Carthaginian Empire, Macedonia and Greece succumbs entirely to the Dark Ages thanks to the Plague, Asia Minor to falls partly because of plague, partly because of how much warfare there has been without the coming of the Barbarians, Iudea, and Syria are conquered by Parthians, but there is no diaspora forced on the Jews, Egypt re-emerges as a power, having cast off the aging Ptolemy Dynasty but Barbarian raids, and the break down of trade reduces it to poverty, and as the Dark Ages happen there is less lost, but also so much less preserved because there is no Catholic Church so nobody realizes there was a Dark Age.

[Brennus]

Tancred the Norman... very in depth but what happens after that? Also isn't alot of it based purely on assumptions? Like plague in Greece or a revolution in Egypt.

[Brennus]

Ok folks last day for theories and then I give out the balloon. I will ask to have this thread closed at 10.40 (GMT) tonight. Thanks for your participation!

[Brennus]

The Tartessans kind of fell apart on their own, so yeah... Also I don't recall them being particularly important in more than a regional, if not strictly local, scale. From what I understand of the relevant geographic dynamics (ie. how the trade routes were wont to run) most of the Iberian peninsula had a rather poor starting position should it have come to competing with more advantageously situated regions. For example, take the "Gallic corridor" linking the Atlantic and the Mediterranean with several fortuitiously situated major rivers and their attendant valleys (and rounding it off with some of Europe's best farmland); or the Danube communications complex linking the Baltic, the Adriatic and the Black Sea to both each other and the European interior. Or the major peninsulas of the Mediterranean interior, that is, the Apennine and Balkan ones which straddle the east-west shipping lanes. (The Southern Italy - Sicily - Tunisia region indeed forms a veritable chokepoint.) Or the Aegean-Marmara-Black Sea axis which is basically the convergence/interface point for *several* major continental-level trade routes... there's a reason Constantinopole was so fabulously rich, and why Charlemagne's short-lived empire (arguably just about the only one that could be said to have genuinely conquered the better part of the European subcontinent, if only fleetingly) grew out of the region of old Gallia.
You get the idea.

Bloody Finns, lol.