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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    you might, i don't, and i don't think it will play too well with floating voters either.
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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Well It seems the Conservative supporting papers are out in force against Clegg today. Looks like they're finally worrying and feel that Dave needs saving.
    Last edited by tibilicus; 04-22-2010 at 12:49.


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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    you might, i don't, and i don't think it will play too well with floating voters either.
    Germany has been racked by guilt for the Second World War for several generations, and it's always going to be a stain on Germany's history. Yet Germany has moved on. Business links with Russia, America, France, America etc. are all extremely strong. Britain is no longer the "Perfidious Albion" of pre-1945 German media, but recognised as an equal partner on the world stage.

    And yet, a juvenile, ignorant and totally repulsive attitude exists in Britain of a feeling of superiority over Germany and Germans as a whole. Despite the fact that there is hardly anyone alive who actually fought against Fascism, apparently every British citizen alive today was a contributor to "winning the war", as if it finished last week. I don't need to give any examples because it such a common phenomenon in British society. The numerous contributions that Germany has made to science, the arts, engineering and pre-1914/post-1945 history go totally ignored. It is insulting to Germany and the German people, and Clegg was entirely in the right to speak out against this rot that infests Britain.

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    Well It seems the Conservative supporting papers are out in force against Clegg today. Looks like they're finally worry and feel that Dave needs saving.
    It can only be a good sign

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Germany has been racked by guilt for the Second World War for several generations, and it's always going to be a stain on Germany's history. Yet Germany has moved on. Business links with Russia, America, France, America etc. are all extremely strong. Britain is no longer the "Perfidious Albion" of pre-1945 German media, but recognised as an equal partner on the world stage.

    And yet, a juvenile, ignorant and totally repulsive attitude exists in Britain of a feeling of superiority over Germany and Germans as a whole. Despite the fact that there is hardly anyone alive who actually fought against Fascism, apparently every British citizen alive today was a contributor to "winning the war", as if it finished last week. I don't need to give any examples because it such a common phenomenon in British society. The numerous contributions that Germany has made to science, the arts, engineering and pre-1914/post-1945 history go totally ignored. It is insulting to Germany and the German people, and Clegg was entirely in the right to speak out against this rot that infests Britain.
    straw-man, and absolute bobbins!

    there are always nut-cases, they they always shout loud, should I tar germany with the visible presence of their neo-nazi groups...........? no, because it doesn't reflect germany as a whole.

    clegg is talking utter guff, and repellent guff at that. i do not want him representing me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post

    Also, 'Britain's cross' is not Britain's past. It is not the history of Britain that is compared with the history of Germany. It is the dealing with history that is compared. Germany's cross to wear is simply guilt, that of Britain is more insiduous still, namely misplaced superiority, sometimes resulting in outright insulting behaviour.
    more bobbins, i'll be the judge of the intellectual strait-jacket through which I grapple with british history, thank you very much.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-22-2010 at 12:47.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    straw-man, and absolute bobbins!

    there are always nut-cases, they they always shout loud, should I tar germany with the visible presence of their neo-nazi groups...........? no, because it doesn't reflect germany as a whole.

    clegg is talking utter guff, and repellent guff at that. i do not want him representing me.


    more bobbins, i'll be the judge of the intellectual strait-jacket through which I grapple with british history, thank you very much.
    Not exactly, it is pretty true. What is even more funny, the English keep going "1966!!!" to the Germans, and the Germans are like "What? Who cares?"
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Not exactly, it is pretty true. What is even more funny, the English keep going "1966!!!" to the Germans, and the Germans are like "What? Who cares?"
    still utter bobbins, please define 'the english'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    The phenomenon which I and Clegg are talking about has nothing in common with the far-right. The far-right is a minority group of mentally challenged extrremists. Anti-German sentiment in the UK is something which is far deeper and more insitutionalised.

    80 per cent of British schoolchildren, when asked what they associated with Germany, mentioned the Second World War, and 50 per cent mentioned Hitler. Even John Cleese hates it, saying at a competition at the German Embassy ""I’m delighted to help with trying to break down the ridiculous anti-German prejudices of the tabloids and clowns like Basil Fawlty, who are pathetically stuck in a world view that’s more than half a century out of date...I think the German contribution to literature and philosophy is extraordinary, and to music and science is enormous.". To say that this a "strawman" argument is to say that we live in a nation of scarecrows.
    yes, some people are idiots, but obey the laws of the land and you can think whatever you want as i have no truck with the thought police mentality, and the last time i checked aggressive english nationalism has not caused any atrocities genocides or invasions.

    So What?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-22-2010 at 15:15.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    still utter bobbins, please define 'the english'?
    For some reason, I doubt it is the Scottish, the Welsh or the Northern Irish will keep going "1966 to you, Germans!".
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    more bobbins, i'll be the judge of the intellectual strait-jacket through which I grapple with british history, thank you very much.
    What straight-jacket?

    Clegg makes the fair point that a view of history best left to the schoolyard and football stadium, has an altogether too large influence on civilised English society. Best to leave 'Two World Wars and One World Cup' to the football stands. (Never mind that the World Cup and at least one World War owe a good deal to Russians. Never mind too that it has never occurred to the singers of it that German fans, Europe's most succesful football nation, are of course not the least bit impressed by foreigners celebrating their one little success of fifty years ago)


    Perhaps the real significance is that Murdoch send his bloodhounds to scour over the whole of Clegg's past, and this non-issue is the best they could dig up.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 04-22-2010 at 20:09.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by tibilicus View Post
    Well It seems the Conservative supporting papers are out in force against Clegg today. Looks like they're finally worry and feel that Dave needs saving.



    The Murdoch papers are not about providing news. They are about political campaigning.

    At first, the Murdoch press was quite content to simply ignore the LibDems as a strategy. Then Clegg won the debate, the Cons got worried, and presto, the Murdoch press changes strategy in perfect unison with the Cons. With reporting, with press, this has got nothing to do. Activist rags they are.


    Also, 'Britain's cross' is not Britain's past. It is not the history of Britain that is compared with the history of Germany. It is the dealing with history that is compared. Germany's cross to wear is simply guilt, that of Britain is more insiduous still, namely misplaced superiority, sometimes resulting in outright insulting behaviour.
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 04-22-2010 at 12:16.
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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Cor blimey, I do believe I have found an article by David Cameron criticising the British constitution! It's a scandal, a scandal!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...icalcolumnists

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Never mind the European constitution, what about the British one? Evidence of the wretched state of our own arrangements is all around us.
    The House of Commons is quite useless at scrutinising legislation and amending it accordingly.
    My experience on one "standing committee", covering the criminal justice bill, was enough to convince me of this. Whole clauses were not even debated because time was too short. Changes of huge significance, such as storing DNA from anyone who is taken to a police station, were introduced at the last minute and discussed for less than an hour.
    Down the corridor in the House of Lords the government may face a more challenging time, but as the upper house is now almost entirely made up of appointed peers it lacks genuine legitimacy.
    The Conservative party is always in danger of letting its reverence for our institutions translate into a dignified silence about constitutional reform. It is time we spoke out.
    Don't get me wrong. Two years into this job I have not lost faith with the British way of doing things. Much of its job, parliament does very well. Our one-member, one-constituency system ensures excellent representation for every part of the country. The Commons is a great place for raising concerns, questioning ministers, discovering information and debating important issues.
    But there is a lot that is seriously wrong. The failure to scrutinise laws. The power of the whips and patronage. The illegitimate second chamber. And the unchecked growth of government from both Whitehall and Brussels.
    What would a package of Conservative constitutional reform look like? Here goes:
    1. Lords' reform
    A botched job that we didn't start, but we must finish. Legitimacy flows from elections and we must restate our commitment to a majority elected house. Conflict between the houses could be limited by making the second chamber a senate, rather than a mirror. Taking out all the ministers, insisting on a single term of 15-year duration and setting out down the powers to reject, delay and question in clear detail would be a pretty good start.
    But the real problem is not the Lords, but the Commons. After all, they actually scrutinise legislation, we just pass it.
    2. Independence for the Commons
    The central problem is the government's complete control of the Commons timetable. There is no balance between the government's right to get its way and the Commons right to scrutinise. Labour's routine timetabling of all bills, the reform of the hours and abolition of all late sittings has made this far worse. Time and again the Speaker is asked for more time, yet all he can say is "these are not matters for me".
    Why not have an all-party committee, elected by MPs, to adjudicate? If the whips kept control those elected would effectively be "named and shamed" for not doing their job properly.
    3. Voting by secret ballot on standing committees.
    Sounds insignificant, but goes to the heart of the problem. We debate laws line by line, but votes are then whipped. During the criminal justice bill Labour MPs would make valiant speeches about why a clause was wrong-headed, only to vote for it as soon as a division was called. Even if amendments were overturned in the chamber, the government would have to explain why it was going against the considered opinion of MPs.
    4. Election of select committee members
    Everyone agrees that select committees do a great job and should be nurtured. They ought to provide an alternative career path to the greasy pole of ministerial office. But members are chosen by an opaque process owing more to patronage than performance. The fiercely independent and effective Chris Mullin has just left the home affairs select committee to become a minister. Heaven knows who we will be sent in his place. Why not guarantee places for all parties, including the minor ones and then let backbenchers vote for their colleagues?
    5. Referendum provision
    I am no fan of what can be the "dictator's weapon", and referendums should have a very limited place in a representative democracy. But it seems to me a pretty good principle that elected representatives should not give up the powers they were elected to wield without asking the people who elected them first.
    At least the wretched Maastricht treaty was clearly set out in the Conservatives' 1992 manifesto; the new constitution was never mentioned in Labour's effort for 2001. 6. Fixed-term parliaments
    If we are looking for ways to redress the balance between a weak legislature and an over-mighty executive, five-year fixed-term parliaments could play a role. A government that lost the confidence of the house could still be forced to dissolve parliament through a vote of confidence.
    7. Limits on ministers, bills and taxes.
    We may not scrutinise it, but we sure as hell pass enough of it. The Home Office is the most incontinent department, having produced some 10 criminal justice bills since 1997 - and to what end?
    Budgets get thicker, taxes get heavier, lists of ministers and their advisers get ever longer. A proper, more independent House of Commons would get to grips with this, but why not set down some limits so that ministers are suitably embarrassed if they have to come back and ask permission to break them?
    8. War powers act
    The Iraq debate set a precedent: it is hard to imagine any government going to war now without a vote in the Commons. But the fact remains that it does not need to seek one. It should.
    9. A written constitution
    What! Isn't it sacrilege for a Conservative to question our age-old, time-proven "unwritten" constitution that has evolved and adapted so superbly down the ages?
    I am beginning to think not. How do we know that freedoms won through the Magna Carta, the bill of rights or anywhere else are under threat? Because we know what they say. Our constitution is being assaulted by an overweening government on the one hand, and a burgeoning Brussels bureaucracy on the other. Is it such a revolutionary concept to suggest that it could, just possibly, be time to write the thing down on a piece of paper?


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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Just watched Brillo grill Simon Hughes on Cleggovers comments about the British. Hughes was all over the place.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Cor blimey, I do believe I have found an article by David Cameron criticising the British constitution! It's a scandal, a scandal!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...icalcolumnists

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Never mind the European constitution, what about the British one? Evidence of the wretched state of our own arrangements is all around us.
    The House of Commons is quite useless at scrutinising legislation and amending it accordingly.
    My experience on one "standing committee", covering the criminal justice bill, was enough to convince me of this. Whole clauses were not even debated because time was too short. Changes of huge significance, such as storing DNA from anyone who is taken to a police station, were introduced at the last minute and discussed for less than an hour.
    Down the corridor in the House of Lords the government may face a more challenging time, but as the upper house is now almost entirely made up of appointed peers it lacks genuine legitimacy.
    The Conservative party is always in danger of letting its reverence for our institutions translate into a dignified silence about constitutional reform. It is time we spoke out.
    Don't get me wrong. Two years into this job I have not lost faith with the British way of doing things. Much of its job, parliament does very well. Our one-member, one-constituency system ensures excellent representation for every part of the country. The Commons is a great place for raising concerns, questioning ministers, discovering information and debating important issues.
    But there is a lot that is seriously wrong. The failure to scrutinise laws. The power of the whips and patronage. The illegitimate second chamber. And the unchecked growth of government from both Whitehall and Brussels.
    What would a package of Conservative constitutional reform look like? Here goes:
    1. Lords' reform
    A botched job that we didn't start, but we must finish. Legitimacy flows from elections and we must restate our commitment to a majority elected house. Conflict between the houses could be limited by making the second chamber a senate, rather than a mirror. Taking out all the ministers, insisting on a single term of 15-year duration and setting out down the powers to reject, delay and question in clear detail would be a pretty good start.
    But the real problem is not the Lords, but the Commons. After all, they actually scrutinise legislation, we just pass it.
    2. Independence for the Commons
    The central problem is the government's complete control of the Commons timetable. There is no balance between the government's right to get its way and the Commons right to scrutinise. Labour's routine timetabling of all bills, the reform of the hours and abolition of all late sittings has made this far worse. Time and again the Speaker is asked for more time, yet all he can say is "these are not matters for me".
    Why not have an all-party committee, elected by MPs, to adjudicate? If the whips kept control those elected would effectively be "named and shamed" for not doing their job properly.
    3. Voting by secret ballot on standing committees.
    Sounds insignificant, but goes to the heart of the problem. We debate laws line by line, but votes are then whipped. During the criminal justice bill Labour MPs would make valiant speeches about why a clause was wrong-headed, only to vote for it as soon as a division was called. Even if amendments were overturned in the chamber, the government would have to explain why it was going against the considered opinion of MPs.
    4. Election of select committee members
    Everyone agrees that select committees do a great job and should be nurtured. They ought to provide an alternative career path to the greasy pole of ministerial office. But members are chosen by an opaque process owing more to patronage than performance. The fiercely independent and effective Chris Mullin has just left the home affairs select committee to become a minister. Heaven knows who we will be sent in his place. Why not guarantee places for all parties, including the minor ones and then let backbenchers vote for their colleagues?
    5. Referendum provision
    I am no fan of what can be the "dictator's weapon", and referendums should have a very limited place in a representative democracy. But it seems to me a pretty good principle that elected representatives should not give up the powers they were elected to wield without asking the people who elected them first.
    At least the wretched Maastricht treaty was clearly set out in the Conservatives' 1992 manifesto; the new constitution was never mentioned in Labour's effort for 2001. 6. Fixed-term parliaments
    If we are looking for ways to redress the balance between a weak legislature and an over-mighty executive, five-year fixed-term parliaments could play a role. A government that lost the confidence of the house could still be forced to dissolve parliament through a vote of confidence.
    7. Limits on ministers, bills and taxes.
    We may not scrutinise it, but we sure as hell pass enough of it. The Home Office is the most incontinent department, having produced some 10 criminal justice bills since 1997 - and to what end?
    Budgets get thicker, taxes get heavier, lists of ministers and their advisers get ever longer. A proper, more independent House of Commons would get to grips with this, but why not set down some limits so that ministers are suitably embarrassed if they have to come back and ask permission to break them?
    8. War powers act
    The Iraq debate set a precedent: it is hard to imagine any government going to war now without a vote in the Commons. But the fact remains that it does not need to seek one. It should.
    9. A written constitution
    What! Isn't it sacrilege for a Conservative to question our age-old, time-proven "unwritten" constitution that has evolved and adapted so superbly down the ages?
    I am beginning to think not. How do we know that freedoms won through the Magna Carta, the bill of rights or anywhere else are under threat? Because we know what they say. Our constitution is being assaulted by an overweening government on the one hand, and a burgeoning Brussels bureaucracy on the other. Is it such a revolutionary concept to suggest that it could, just possibly, be time to write the thing down on a piece of paper?

    you are surprised by this why?

    and most interestingly, something i have been saying on this forum for years: "But it seems to me a pretty good principle that elected representatives should not give up the powers they were elected to wield without asking the people who elected them first."
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    straw-man, and absolute bobbins!

    there are always nut-cases, they they always shout loud, should I tar germany with the visible presence of their neo-nazi groups...........? no, because it doesn't reflect germany as a whole.

    clegg is talking utter guff, and repellent guff at that. i do not want him representing me.
    The phenomenon which I and Clegg are talking about has nothing in common with the far-right. The far-right is a minority group of mentally challenged extrremists. Anti-German sentiment in the UK is something which is far deeper and more insitutionalised.

    80 per cent of British schoolchildren, when asked what they associated with Germany, mentioned the Second World War, and 50 per cent mentioned Hitler. Even John Cleese hates it, saying at a competition at the German Embassy ""I’m delighted to help with trying to break down the ridiculous anti-German prejudices of the tabloids and clowns like Basil Fawlty, who are pathetically stuck in a world view that’s more than half a century out of date...I think the German contribution to literature and philosophy is extraordinary, and to music and science is enormous.". To say that this a "strawman" argument is to say that we live in a nation of scarecrows.

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/worl...ugh.2442846.jp
    http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/ab.../whygerm1.html

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    The phenomenon which I and Clegg are talking about has nothing in common with the far-right. The far-right is a minority group of mentally challenged extrremists. Anti-German sentiment in the UK is something which is far deeper and more insitutionalised.

    80 per cent of British schoolchildren, when asked what they associated with Germany, mentioned the Second World War, and 50 per cent mentioned Hitler. Even John Cleese hates it, saying at a competition at the German Embassy ""I’m delighted to help with trying to break down the ridiculous anti-German prejudices of the tabloids and clowns like Basil Fawlty, who are pathetically stuck in a world view that’s more than half a century out of date...I think the German contribution to literature and philosophy is extraordinary, and to music and science is enormous.". To say that this a "strawman" argument is to say that we live in a nation of scarecrows.

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/worl...ugh.2442846.jp
    http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/ab.../whygerm1.html
    This is something pressed by the government, almost the entire history curriculum from GCSE onwards is either 1914-46, with a focus on Germany, or is more generally about Israel!

    no wonder we have anti-German prejudice ingrained in the school children.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Member Member Boohugh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The United Kingdom Elections 2010

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    80 per cent of British schoolchildren, when asked what they associated with Germany, mentioned the Second World War
    I don't quite see why you are surprised or shocked by that statistic? The biggest single contribution (if it can be called that) Germany has made to history is World War Two, that event has shaped everything that has happened in the last 60 years. That doesn't mean they haven't made other contributions, and it doesn't mean we can't recognise those other contributions to science, literature, etc, but it also doesn't mean we should ignore or forget what happened.

    There is an important difference between understanding and recognising history (which should be encouraged) and trying to continually blame people for it (which should be discouraged). Obviously when you have people randomly insulting German tourists then there is a problem, but pointing out those people and saying they represent everyone in England is just as bad a stereotype and, as explained above, using a statistic that says schoolchildren associate Germany with WW2 does not prove that they all then hold a negative view because of that.

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