Why should we have to respect religions?

[Louis VI the Fat]

The whole point is religion is a private issue and the state should neither help nor hinder it provided it does not begin to physically harm people the state has a duty to protect.

The state also considers it her duty to educate young citizens / see to it that they are educated.

Would it be alright for a child to receive an education that teaches that 1+1=3? Or that 3 is really 1? That the earth is flat?

A religion that supports doing unto others as you would have them do unto you is (arguably) more respectable than one that doesn't support it.

This is why "common courtesy" isn't really an answer.

I have a clear hierarchy of the theoretical and practical respectability of certain religions, yes. Child sacrifices to Baal are pretty low on the list, for example.

The words respect and opinion are a bit troublesome I think. Are we talking about respect in a "live and let live" sense, or in a "I admire this" sense? Are we talking about opinions as things that people believe, or purely subjective beliefs?

You can respect a person and think that their beliefs are false or ridiculous.

Perhaps this latter, yes.

But what of those who adhere to Baal? I can't say I respect the person.

Your questions about terminology are essential, but I fail in coming up with a few quick thoughts.

[Strike For The South]

The state also considers it her duty to educate young citizens / see to it that they are educated.

Would it be alright for a child to receive an education that teaches that 1+1=3? Or that 3 is really 1? That the earth is flat?
.

I think you are using hyperbole to make your point. I would submit while schooling should be a right, parents have the right to teach the child what they see fit but should not expect to coddle said child when he can't function in the real world.

Are you arguing against paroichal schools? Which I submit while perhaps deviating from public schools in a few marked ways still prepare a child for the world...or the crazier evangelical home schoolers whom I submit the state has no right to intervine in what they privatley teach there youngsters.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I have a clear hierarchy of the theoretical and practical respectability of certain religions, yes. Child sacrifices to Baal are pretty low on the list, for example.

Perhaps this latter, yes.

But what of those who adhere to Baal? I can't say I respect the person.

Your questions about terminology are essential, but I fail in coming up with a few quick thoughts.

Right, that's where it gets tricky, because to a certain extent the person is their beliefs. When you say a belief is ridiculous, you are calling a small part of them ridiculous. And it may be that a belief is a big enough deal that you lose respect for the person.

So saying "play the ball not the man" is a bit euphemistic, or equivocal or orwellian or two faced or whatever word I'm looking for here. You are always playing the man, it just seems to us that there's a proper way to do and an improper way.

[rory_20_uk]

Its not polite to mock what someone believes in.

Different people take it to different levels. I have a friend IRL who won't see Clash of the Titans (the movie) due to it having 'pagan' gods in it. Its not polite to mock something she believes so whole-heartedly in.

Sure you can do all of them, theres a time and a place though. This, I guess, is not the place to mock it. Laugh and challenge sometimes, but not all the time.

I try to respect everyone's beliefs, and in turn I hope they respect mine.

Most religions aren't based on respect - as your friend so aptly showed. Theirs is right, everyone else is going to Hell / should be killed / is subhuman. Why should I accept their prejudice merely as it's been around for a long time?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Most religions aren't based on respect - as your friend so aptly showed. Theirs is right, everyone else is going to Hell / should be killed / is subhuman. Why should I accept their prejudice merely as it's been around for a long time?

Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean you can't respect them.

For example, I do not think all atheists are scum of the earth, many of them are better people than their Christian counterparts. Or another example, when me and PVC have our free will determinism debate, we respect each others wordlviews in that they make sense and come from strong well educated traditions, without saying that we are both right. On the other hand, we have less respect for, say, the modern day Evangelical take on the matter, since it doesn't make sense really.

[rory_20_uk]

Viewing others as wrong / inhuman / moving targets doesn't leave a lot of room for respect.

Judeism: Jews are the "chosen people". So, the rest of us are less important
Islam: Infidels are not put in the "we agree to disagree" category
Christianity: what is written tends to be more into converting rather than killing, but the lengths some will go to "save" a soul...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Viewing others as wrong / inhuman / moving targets doesn't leave a lot of room for respect.

So you don't respect anyone who has any sort of religious faith, since you think they are wrong?

Personal qualities can be tied to a person's beliefs, but it's ofen a lot more complicated that that. If you take the average person, and raise them in different environments, they will end up with completely different views. If we were all born and raised a four hundred years ago, the chances are that all of us would be religious and view atheism as some sort of quirky ideology associated with political radicalism.

[drone]

So you don't respect anyone who has any sort of religious faith, since you think they are wrong?

No, rory_20_uk appears to be agreeing with my point. Religions generally don't respect non/unbeleivers, those who are not in "the faith" are generally seen as lesser beings. It's got nothing to do with whether you think a religion is wrong, it's the fact that that religion definitely sees outsiders as wrong. It's in the very nature of organized religion to do this.

[Rhyfelwyr]

No, rory_20_uk appears to be agreeing with my point. Religions generally don't respect non/unbeleivers, those who are not in "the faith" are generally seen as lesser beings. It's got nothing to do with whether you think a religion is wrong, it's the fact that that religion definitely sees outsiders as wrong. It's in the very nature of organized religion to do this.

I don't think its fair to generalise religions like that, most branches of Christianity do not see non-Christians as lesser beings. They disagree with their wordlview, but that happens both ways.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

No, rory_20_uk appears to be agreeing with my point. Religions generally don't respect non/unbeleivers, those who are not in "the faith" are generally seen as lesser beings. It's got nothing to do with whether you think a religion is wrong, it's the fact that that religion definitely sees outsiders as wrong. It's in the very nature of organized religion to do this.

Don't people generally not respect those with very different beliefs?

Arg, the vague use of religion coupled with "I don't respect them because they don't respect me" just confuses things. And the vagueness of "respect" too.

[drone]

Well, there is "treat non-believers with respect" which is always nice, but there is always the exclusionary "have fun in hell, you unwashed heathen" aspect. This is the nature of any organized religion, there is always a need to tell adherents that they are special and above those that do not believe. If this didn't exist, why would anyone sign up?

[Husar]

Because I think not having to work every seventh day is a good idea regardless. Are you promoting some capitalist paradise here where people drone away seven days a week?

[Pannonian]

Viewing others as wrong / inhuman / moving targets doesn't leave a lot of room for respect.

Judeism: Jews are the "chosen people". So, the rest of us are less important
Islam: Infidels are not put in the "we agree to disagree" category
Christianity: what is written tends to be more into converting rather than killing, but the lengths some will go to "save" a soul...

How does the C of E fit into this?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well, there is "treat non-believers with respect" which is always nice, but there is always the exclusionary "have fun in hell, you unwashed heathen" aspect. This is the nature of any organized religion, there is always a need to tell adherents that they are special and above those that do not believe. If this didn't exist, why would anyone sign up?

Well smugness doesn't need religion to exist, too. So I'd guess that “I told you so” or “I know better than you” or even an “I am better than you” is pretty much an ingrained `conservative' worldview that people have; by which I mean people seem slow to accept that they might be wrong or there's more than one world view equally plausible.

Respect ideas? There is absolute zero need for that, per se. What I think, you do need to do is respect those who hold a given idea as deserving of their own world view; however misguided they might be. Then it follows you should try not to offend them in unrelated arguments by constructing straw-mans, false generalisations or ad-hominems based on those.

[Centurion1]

you should respect a bloody religion because i respect you atheists for having no damn imagination.

I dont know what the quality of your intellectuals are Kadagar but i know plenty of smart people who believe in religion.

[drone]

Respect ideas? There is absolute zero need for that, per se. What I think, you do need to do is respect those who hold a given idea as deserving of their own world view; however misguided they might be.

On the individual level, I agree. People should be allowed to believe whatever they want. And respect that others may believe differently.

Then it follows you should try not to offend them in unrelated arguments by constructing straw-mans, false generalisations or ad-hominems based on those.

Any organized religion becomes a bureaucracy of sorts. If the religion is tied into state power, even more so. This political structure does not lend itself to respecting individuals or opposing viewpoints.

[Husar]

you should respect a bloody religion because i respect you atheists for having no damn imagination.

Trying to prove the atheist point, are you?

I don't think liking people for who they are regardless of religion or non-religion is that hard, neither is disliking strangers for their religion or non-religion hard.
Except of yourse if you're trying to say your friends are mostly idiots.

No, not you Centurion, you as in everyone.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Do the non-religious deserve respect?


Is there any group more convinced of its own righteousness than atheists? More smug?
Those who believe in human progress, in the increase of knowledge and enlightenment, should be the first to see that all knowledge and morality is a product of a time and place. Yet at the same time they declare their own values and knowledge universal and eternal. A whopping logical fallacy. Logic which they claim as their own too.

It's not just theory. The past two centuries have been the bloodiest in human history. It's the result of the progressofascists, enlightenment fundamentalists.
Their plunder of the planet, result of their 'humanity first' ideology, caused the largest Extinction Level Event in 65 million years.


I say we ban Western Enlightenment, at least forbid its adherents for the foreseeable future from practising their ideas. Ban their clothes too, these trousers-jacket-tie fundamentalist uniforms that destroy individual expression from NY to Paris to Tokyo.

[rory_20_uk]

How does the C of E fit into this?

The C of E is a political construct from about 500 years ago to usurp the Pope, and was more effective than most other attempts at the time. I thought that C of E was Christian, high Protestant church. Elizabeth I managed to kill many, many people for not bieng C of E, and that was also a facet of the Civil War.

[Pannonian]

The C of E is a political construct from about 500 years ago to usurp the Pope, and was more effective than most other attempts at the time. I thought that C of E was Christian, high Protestant church. Elizabeth I managed to kill many, many people for not bieng C of E, and that was also a facet of the Civil War.

I was hoping for something like this.

Judeism: Jews are the "chosen people". So, the rest of us are less important
Islam: Infidels are not put in the "we agree to disagree" category
Christianity: what is written tends to be more into converting rather than killing, but the lengths some will go to "save" a soul...
Church of England: People disagree with each other, but all these disagreements are all facets of the "greater truth", whose only certainty is that we all like tea and scones.

[Fragony]

I have zero respect for religion, why should I. I treat people like I want to be treated, and I want to be left alone. Any demand from me because of religion won't push the right buttons, asking for respect because you have an imaginary friend will get you one polite answer, trying to get shops closed on sundays or whatever pushy behaviour disgusts me so much that I couldn't be polite if I tried I detest that.

[Pannonian]

I have zero respect for religion, why should I. I treat people like I want to be treated, and I want to be left alone. Any demand from me because of religion won't push the right buttons, asking for respect because you have an imaginary friend will get you one polite answer, trying to get shops closed on sundays or whatever pushy behaviour disgusts me so much that I couldn't be polite if I tried I detest that.

Ah, that's just another aspect of belief that should be respected. You'll fit under the (extremely) big umbrella that is the C of E. Do you like tea?

[drone]

I thought the C of E was just a land/money grab by Henry to finance his wars, with the side advantage of being able to ditch non-productive wives. I had no idea he made tea a sacrament.

[Rhyfelwyr]

lol at the CofE bashing. Although I think many of the jibes have a lot of truth in them for much of Chrisitanity today. Everything is so polarised, either you are part of the hippie Jesus everyone is right camp, or you're a YEC that believes Jesus is about to return.

[Centurion1]

or your a centurion1 who wants the church to reform AND start a crusade.

[Beskar]

you should respect a bloody religion because i respect you atheists for having no damn imagination.

You could argue differently, they have that much more imagination, they could imagine a concept where a God doesn't exist. Many theists completely fail at this point. Atheist can understand the universe in its true wonderful diversity that are beyond our realms of imagination, but still try. They don't go "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" "'cause God said so", they actually go out and find out why it is blue, in order to appreciate it, instead of the ol' "just 'cause" mentally.

Except for scientology, L. R. Hubbard was clearly taking some sort of illegal substance when he wrote that bible of theirs. But that is a different sort of imagination.

[Brenus]

“illegal substance when he wrote that bible of theirs. But that is a different sort of imagination.” Yope. But the 3 main monotheistic Religions started with people wondering in the desert without a hat. Very dangerous.

[Rhyfelwyr]

You could argue differently, they have that much more imagination, they could imagine a concept where a God doesn't exist. Many theists completely fail at this point. Atheist can understand the universe in its true wonderful diversity that are beyond our realms of imagination, but still try. They don't go "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" "'cause God said so", they actually go out and find out why it is blue, in order to appreciate it, instead of the ol' "just 'cause" mentally.

This is what I mean when I say that Christians saying their worldview is right isn't any different from when an atheist does the same. People always hate on Chrisitans for thinking their view of the world is right. But then, everyone think their way is right. Atheists think the Christian concept of God is unreasonable, baseless, contradictory, and Christians themselves are judgemntal, exclusivist etc etc. Ooooh how intolerant, atheists obviously think they are better to arrive at their own correct beliefs.

[The Stranger]

I disagree, I don't think it is common courtesy to let everyone go about without their ideas challenged on a daily basis simply because you are too lazy to go along with having your own ideas challenged as well. How is a Democracy supposed to grow and flourish if the public's ideas are no longer in a free market of competition but instead in their own isolated bubbles becoming individual ideological Japan's circa Tokugawa shogunate?

democracy as intended once wont work in anything but a small community. this beauty contest might. but in a beauty contest its not much about ideas is it.
you are allowed to critisize religion, you are allowed to talk about religion, you are allowed to disagree. That is not with clear offensive intent. There is a difference, and very large one, between mocking and criticism. the former is destructive, the latter always ought to be constructive. And as with all things in our societies we have banned intentional destructive things and condone only constructive actions. So you might just as well ask why am i not allowed to kill my neighbour for believing in a life after this one. i think you'd find the anwser quite obvious.

[The Stranger]

Well, there is "treat non-believers with respect" which is always nice, but there is always the exclusionary "have fun in hell, you unwashed heathen" aspect. This is the nature of any organized religion, there is always a need to tell adherents that they are special and above those that do not believe. If this didn't exist, why would anyone sign up?

isnt that the foundation of every society? societies exist because they exclude others, because they make a disctinction between us and them. if a society would include everything in it, it would become the universe and it would be meaningless to speak of society anymore. the same aspect is also there with atheists, its "treat believers and otherminded with respect" but there is also most of the times this "omg its so clear u stupid dimwitted smallminded people"

This is what I mean when I say that Christians saying their worldview is right isn't any different from when an atheist does the same. People always hate on Chrisitans for thinking their view of the world is right. But then, everyone think their way is right. Atheists think the Christian concept of God is unreasonable, baseless, contradictory, and Christians themselves are judgemntal, exclusivist etc etc. Ooooh how intolerant, atheists obviously think they are better to arrive at their own correct beliefs.

most people who are atheists nowadays, believe in the big bang, gravity, physics etc would have believed in god 400 years ago. because now they still believe only what is dominent, what they hear and are taught. they do not construct, scrutinize, investigate anything. and im not sure if i'd be any different. i would like to believe i would be, but i dont know.