A Modest Proposal: Limiting the Franchise

[drone]

especially one like America which fought two Civil Wars and had about a Century of unrest over the issue.

[CountArach]

I fail to accept the premise that decreasing Government spending is desirable. Until a convincing argument can be made for that then I think any further debate on how is completely and utterly superfluous.

Oh and I'm glad to hear that I'm a "leech" and not worthy of the vote. Thanks for that guys.

[InsaneApache]

In a play on words. No representation without taxation.

It's gone downhill since women got the vote.

[PanzerJaeger]

I fail to accept the premise that decreasing Government spending is desirable. Until a convincing argument can be made for that then I think any further debate on how is completely and utterly superfluous.

Greece.

Oh and I'm glad to hear that I'm a "leech" and not worthy of the vote. Thanks for that guys.

Do you plan on living off of the government for the rest of your life without paying taxes? From what I know about you, I assume that, in fact, you are planning on being a productive member of society. Thus, you are not a leech.

Utilizing government aid for education or short-term assistance isn't the problem. That's what it's there for. It's the people who live off of welfare programs all year and then get a nice check from the government while the rest of us are writing one.

The brilliant Dr. Sowell makes the case well, all the way back in the 80s. How far things have fallen...

[Beskar]

Greece.

"That will never work/happen in America!!! we are not Europe!!!" - In regards to concepts for the greater good, such as Universal Health Care.

"A country failed!!! we will turn into that country!!" - In regards to a completely different economical situation.

[Husar]

Excellent point Beskar, you are however overlooking the fact that the USA per definition never fail and when they do it's the fault of the evil commie socialists who want to turn the USA into another Europe(and that's something you really got to be afraid of!)...

I don't think limiting the voters on the basis of taxation and government help is a very good idea. I know a guy who was unemployed but didn't lose his faith in capitalism. And then you could find hundreds of other reasons to exclude people from voting because they wouldn't vote for the party you prefer.

[PanzerJaeger]

"That will never work/happen in America!!! we are not Europe!!!" - In regards to concepts for the greater good, such as Universal Health Care.

"A country failed!!! we will turn into that country!!" - In regards to a completely different economical situation.

You're trying too hard. He wanted a convincing argument for decreasing government spending and I cannot think of a better one than Greece's current predicament. I said nothing about the United States.

[miotas]

I write a state check and a federal check, and I give them to him. Then I pay him for his time and it's all over until next year.

It's the people who live off of welfare programs all year and then get a nice check from the government while the rest of us are writing one.

Do you pay tax as a lump sum in the US?

[Beskar]

Do you pay tax as a lump sum in the US?

It is interesting, isn't it? We get taxed before we even recieve the money into our bank accounts.

[Lemur]

Do you pay tax as a lump sum in the US?

Not really, no. The most common forms of taxes owed:

• Property tax for any real estate you own/co-own. This goes to local schools and government, not the state. Paid directly to the county or township.
• Sales tax for anything you sell in-state. This goes to the state government and is owed quarterly. (I never had to deal with this until my wife invented and started selling health bars for athletes.) This does not include services, which fall under W-9 contractor income, so your accountant doesn't owe sales tax on her services, nor does a carpenter, etc.
• State income tax. Paid directly to the state, owed annually.
• Federal income tax. Paid directly to the feds, and owed annually.
• LLC and/or corporate taxes are owed quarterly to both the feds and state. If you operate any sort of business you probably have to deal with this, unless you are an LLC "disregarded entity" or a sole proprietorship.

And for all of this, unless you have studied accounting and tax law, it is generally better to pay a little money to have a CPA handle the nitty-gritty, if only because this obligates the CPA to represent you if the IRS ever comes sniffing 'round your door.

-edit-

We get taxed before we even recieve the money into our bank accounts.

If your only income is salary, in other words, if your only source of money is a job you do for a company, then your situation will be pretty similar. Payroll tax, SS tax, FICA, all of that will be withheld from your paycheck. Assuming you configure your withholdings correctly, you can expect money back at the end of the year. But for entrepreneurs, the self-employed and so forth, it's a lot more complicated.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...If your only income is salary, in other words, if your only source of money is a job you do for a company, then your situation will be pretty similar. Payroll tax, SS tax, FICA, all of that will be withheld from your paycheck. Assuming you configure your withholdings correctly, you can expect money back at the end of the year. But for entrepreneurs, the self-employed and so forth, it's a lot more complicated.

Oh, you mean that part of the taxation process where the government graciously returns my money to me after having had free use of it for most of a year? My "refund..." What bollocks.

Aside from my peeve there, our proto-simian friend has given a pretty accurate short synopsis of American taxation.

I'd add that many states have a sales tax in place of or in addition to an income tax, and

A number of municipalities also charge a wage tax, levied not on citizens of that locale per se, but on anyone employed within municipal limits.

[InsaneApache]

Do you pay tax as a lump sum in the US?

Before P.A.Y.E. was introduced into the UK, we too got a tax demand at the end of the financial year. Must have been bloody awful.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A Civil War over not voting for politicians in London, then another over slavery and state's Rights, then the Klan etc., etc., until the Civil Rights movement (mostly) brought them down in the 1960's.

[KukriKhan]

A Civil War over not voting for politicians in London, then another over slavery and state's Rights, then the Klan etc., etc., until the Civil Rights movement (mostly) brought them down in the 1960's.

I got that, after a moment's pause (from the POV of UK, our so-called Revolutionary War WAS a UK/Colonial Civil War).

As we've seen throughout history, "rights" (or entitlements), once given, are almost impossible to rescind later. So, as noted by the OP, limiting the franchise is next to impossible, particularly given the entanglement of subsidies, shared resources (highways, military, etc).

Perhaps a better approach to the "what about the Receivers of Tax money?" dilema is: consider received tax money as a Retainer Fee, like a lawyer to whom one pays a small fee for routine consultations (more, and hourly, charges for specific work). So every recipient of tax dollars is a potential - and sometimes actual - government employee. Getting welfare & food stamps? I might need you to pick up trash in Memorial Park on Tuesdays. Getting subsidies for milk production on your farm? Howsabout helping the road crew filling potholes on I-75 at mile marker 27 next Thursday, near your property?

[drone]

I got that, after a moment's pause (from the POV of UK, our so-called Revolutionary War WAS a UK/Colonial Civil War).

I've always thought of the Revolution as a rebellion, not a civil war.

[InsaneApache]

I've always thought of the Revolution as a rebellion, not a civil war.

I spose it was a civil war. After all, not all of the colonists wanted to leave the UK. There was also quite a number of UK born citizens that joined the 'patriots'. There is a feeling that the rebellion was really the third and final act of the English civil war from a hundred years or so before. For practically the same reason.

[KukriKhan]

I've always thought of the Revolution as a rebellion, not a civil war.

Yeah, me too. Then again you and I are US'ers. But if you pretend you're a Brit and look at a 1775 map and see the UK's holdings in N.Am. (including a buncha islands in the Gulf) our 13 rebelling colonies were less than half his majesty's assigned geography. Hence, a 'civil war' amongst off-island (GB) properties - not unlike Confederate States declaring independence from the Union; the difference being the head guy in 1776 lived in London, whereas the head guy in 1861 lived in D.C.

-edit-
Trying to stay on-topic: Seamus raises a good point about teh Founders likely being more amenable to a more restrictive franchise, as the theory was one of "skin in the game" then. But, in my opinion, the deed is done, universal franchise for all human legal residents ("citizens"), and cannot be un-done without excessive conflict - probably bloody.

[Lemur]

It's a revolution if you win, a civil war (or a revolt) if you lose, and a rebellion if you're in the middle of it and you don't know how it will end. (Kinda like that old formulation about how "treason can never prosper, for none dare call it treason if it prospers.")

[KukriKhan]

It's a revolution if you win, a civil war (or a revolt) if you lose, and a rebellion if you're in the middle of it and you don't know how it will end. (Kinda like that old formulation about how "treason can never prosper, for none dare call it treason if it prospers.")

Hee-hee. Reminds me of Catholic School, where I learned about "The Protestant Revolt". A few years later I heard about "The Reformation" and wondered what that was. :)

[Idaho]

All you people who think this is a good idea - could you, like, find another planet to live on or something?