StarWars: Return of the Sith [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, I would like to point out, why does Splitpersonality and Choxorn have a blackened name in the alive list?

They replaced players who were WOG'ed and had blue names as such.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2477576

Then, there was no need to highlight their names in blue anymore so Sigurd switched the color to black instead of hitting the Remove Text Formatting button, which turned it the color Black instead of returning to the standard color which is off-black.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=1#post2478098

[Husar]

Also, I would like to point out, why does Splitpersonality and Choxorn have a blackened name in the alive list?

Aren't they replacements?

Or do you think Sigurd accidentally marked the sith black?

[Sigurd]

Ah, you guys are using the new forum skin with yellow text?

Fixing ...

fixed, but only in the summary thread, where you aught to read the results.

[Winston Hughes]

Actually it is padawan level -- Beskar will confirm, but that's information I have from him.

For what it's worth, I can confirm this beyond any doubt, since I got this ability myself and was still a padawan when I got murdered the following night.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've mine set to "The Guild" which has sort of black 95% text, but not 100% black. The difference is noticeable if you're looking for it.

[Beskar]

Or do you think Sigurd accidentally marked the sith black?

I almost did consider that. Would have been extremely funny, if so.

Same as ATPG for me.

[Sigurd]

Announcement: I have also updated last night's results.

[Beskar]

Still says "Den Siva was returning from a previous engagement". So looks like that wasn't the mistake.

[Renata]

Well, Chaotix does report a result now; I had a PM when I woke up.

Niklas is mafia.

vote: Niklas

Psychonaut can wait -- I still have a number of concerns about him, but some of them need cross-checking. I have PMs from him whose contents I'll make public sometime today, since Niklas has seen them anyway.

Maybe one day I'll get over my embarrassment.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I tend to think Renata - and everyone else - are correct in assuming that Niklas/Den Siva is in fact among the sith. Therefore, I will vote:Niklas. I don't see how it makes him the sith lord, though.

Looking forward to hearing if Chaotix/Yoda can figure out what powerroles he can and can't trust. The game might depend on that.

fos:DiamondEye

[Beskar]

Well, if Niklas is mafia, I called it first - link

I think some one tipped him off that i was investigating him though, that is why I got killed.

[naut]

Well, Chaotix does report a result now; I had a PM when I woke up.

Niklas is mafia.

vote: Niklas

Not too suprised. Can Chaotix personally confirm in thread please. No offence, Renata, but I'd like to Chaotix too personally state the results, his word > than your word.

[pevergreen]

lol

Vote: Niklas

[GeneralHankerchief]

Hmm, I'd like to thank the Sith for killing me during finals.

Good luck town, I'll be around to help out starting Monday probably.

[Renata]

I'm going to post most of Psychonaut's PMs to me. Niklas has nearly all of them, anyway, so it doesn't matter, and maybe it will help shed some light on things. I'm only going to leave out what he said about his visit to the holocron a couple of nights ago (in case he is innocent), and the information he gives about who might or might not be susceptible to recruitment. (Too subject to WIFOM in the case of those who are susceptible; and only makes any who are not even more of a target to have it known publicly. Not to mention if he is mafia, it may not be accurate.)

First contact:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

My ability is:

Force Sight

Each night I am able to see what happens over the ship. I do not get the complete picture, I get a jumble of what is either useless fluff, role names, alignments/susceptibility, minor occurrences and possibly major occurrences. Essentially, a very inaccurate and incomplete investigation.

Some of my odd behaviour is a result of this, trying to piece together pieces of information that may or may not make sense, or may or may not be useful. Like my insistence of Beskar being neutral was due to my results from Night 2, they suggested Dooku struggling with a internal conflict, so I read this to be that he was neither Sith nor Jedi, which I now realise was probably incorrect.

Of those in my list, yes, most are from in thread, however, the following names have appeared in my results:

Daye Azur-Jamin - Captain Blackadder
Yoda - Chaotix
Dooku - Beskar
Koffi Arana - Winston Hughes
Qui-Gon Jinn
Palpatine - my results suggest he has Force Cloak, so I know he exists, but my own or any other investigative abilities may not correctly identify him.
Luke Skywalker
Sifo Dyas
Atris
Corran Horn
Micah Giiett

Trying to match people with their roles is difficult, because it isn't explicit. For example, I received in my Night 1 results a suggestion that Blackadder as one of three Jedi, potentially Luke Skywalker, when in fact I had misinterpreted the results and he was in fact Daye Azur-Jamin.

I wish I could share the result PMs as many eyes would make light work, but I specifically cannot as my ability is, in the canon, a mental ability and also doing so is not particularly sportsmanlike (being able to transmit exact thoughts, yes perhaps some Jedi can, but not perception).

Most of this is innocuous or even slightly suggestive of innocence (like the explanation for the weird suggestion that Beskar might be neutral). But the last sentence pings: Sigurd has put very few restrictions on information sharing, yet Psychonaut "specifically cannot" share his result PMs. I don't know what that's supposed to mean if not that Sigurd has put a restriction on him specifically, which seems inconsistent with the rest of the game.

I responded with a few questions, including that he had missed out Tahiri Veila from his list (who happens to be me -- again Niklas already knows this ), and got this as a response:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's late here and I really need sleep. I need to be more awake to give you a proper response, so if you don't mind I'll do so in the morning.

Also:

Finally, you seem to be missing a name. Tahiri Veila was in Niklas' "not in write-ups/not obvious" category, which should mean you should not have that name available to you unless it turned up in your results. Given the omission, please tell me as much as you can about how and what you know about that role, along with the two mentioned above.

Clerical error on my part, it's at the bottom of my notes and upon copying and pasting I missed it.

Quite a coincidence that, especially given that by this point another day's results had been added since the time Psychonaut first gave Beskar the list with my name in it. Did the information on me actually come from Niklas directly, and that's why Psychonaut left it out?

There was then the delay in response I mentioned in the thread (and Psychonaut's explanation of an exam he had to take). Here's what he had to say when he did respond. Note that by this time Palpatine ('khaan) had been lynched without resistance.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Can you tell me roughly what your results were on the dead players minus Yoda and Dooku, and on what night they turned up in your results? (That is, Captain Blackadder and Winston Hughes.) Also, assuming that Palpatine is the force killer, there should still be one other "jedi" active every single night out killing people. Were any of the people on your list plausibly connected to that?

Night 1:
Captain Blackadder (Daye Azur-Jamin) - reference to lack of formal training, (followed up by Blackadder himself posting in thread about how he taught himself), I then contacted him to see if he was Luke Skywalker or Kyle Katarn, he replied saying he was neither. I drew the conclusion.
Possible Dooku reference, implications about him as an instructor at the Jedi Temple.
Luke Skywalker - seems to have found a holocron.
Fluff about holocrons.

Night 2:
Chaotix (Yoda) - witnessed him walking down a hallway, I couldn't make out what he was doing, his appearance is mentioned.
Beskar (Dooku) - struggles with internal conflicts, anger, which I took to mean he was neutral/recruitable. Probably look back on it, it was another reference to his time before he joined the dark side.
Corran Horn - probable reference to purity.

Night 3:
Qui-Gon Jinn - seems if I find him my "understanding" may improve.
Sifo Dyas - ***************
Yeseikhaan (Palpatine) - complete misinterpretation on my part, what appeared to be a cloaking, a hidden aspect to him was probably just a reference to him being Sith susceptible.
Yoda, jumble of semi-incoherent sentences, one stands out is a quote "Meditate on this, I will." followed by clear your mind of chaos.

Night 4:
Atris, fluff, fluff, fluff. I have no idea what is or is not relevant here.
Tahiri Veila, nothing much, the role name, an obscure reference.
Yoda again, this time his actions against Dooku.
Possible Anakin Skywalker reference, or a reference to the lightsaber Sith.

Night 5:
Winston Hughes (Koffi Arana) - it appears I essentially witnessed his death. The reference to his killer is strange, it could indicate Darth Wyyrlok.
Micah Giiett - ************* Nothing significant.
Reference to force ghosts.

Night 6:
Githany - **************
Qui-Gon Jinn - I seem to be trying to reach out to him. His back is turned.
Reference to only two Sith.
Possible Thermal Mercury reference, planets come up somewhat readily.

There are some underlying themes, specifically eyes, and eye colour. There are some links that could relate to player names as well, but I may simply be misinterpreting it, I don't really want to speculate, at this stage. If anything Githany ***************************

I'll double check my notes to see if I've missed anything.

The mentions of Qui-Gon Jinn stood out as a possible fishing attempt, obviously (which Niklas was ever so kind to point out when I spoke to him about it, but then, it wouldn't be the first time he's been "helpful" like that regarding a mafia teammate). The backtracking on Palpatine is also interesting -- I thought at the time it might be designed to imply that an actually-guity Yaseikhaan was not, because Psychonaut voted AVSM that day. But now I think it's just as possible that Yaseikhaan was not mafia, in which case the backtracking would serve a dual purpose: take attention away from Psychonaut (and Niklas') actually-meaningless votes for AVSM over 'Khaan, and also remove the smear on the role of Palpatine that Psychonaut had included in his previous PM to me.

I starting fishing a bit to find out just how much Psychonaut really wanted to contact Qui-Gon Jinn (if he were town, you'd think he'd be really eager to find him, right?) and also asked about the "obscure reference" he mentioned in connection to my role. I wasn't thinking about any connection to Niklas at that point, obviously, but my long-standing questions about the nature of his professed ability itself had me thinking that much of what he'd told me might be made up out of whole cloth, in which case he might have difficulty coming up with anything that related directly to information in my own PM.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OK, read this over, a couple of thoughts.

I'm still not 100% sure what to think about you. Just got killed off in Inishmore, and I'm not thinking straight. But I don't intend to push for you to be lynched today, and most likely by the time I'm able to fully participate again (weekends are always bad for me), it will have shaken out one way or the other. I may have more questions in a bit, though; I'm too brain-fried to remember what I had wanted to ask.

As for the content of what you said:
You obviously want to find Qui-Gon Jinn. Assuming for the moment you are town, don't even ask me how you should best go about doing that.

I'm Tahiri Veila. If you tell me what the "obscure reference" was, it's possible I might be able to shed some light on what some of the stuff you're getting refers to -- I have a theory.

Well I assume you are a Jedi Knight, and it could be that ***********************

Also, last night the name Lar Le'Ung appeared, appears to be a sleeping knight.

Three things:
-- no response to the Qui-Gon fishing
-- i'm not a Knight, I'm a padawan. (The deleted bits, btw, are nothing that couldn't be derived from a quick glance at Wookiepedia.) I've never been able to figure out why Psychonaut would get that wrong if it came straight from Sigurd. It does make some sense if it instead came from Niklas, because Niklas knew I'm a padawan -- disguise the source of the information maybe? Except:
-- Lar Le'Ung was also not a knight, but an initiate. So I'm not sure what's going on here. What's more interesting is that not long after this PM (the same game day), Psychonaut accused Greyblades -- who was Lar Le'Ung! Another coincidence, and a heck of a big one, though the motives for him to do this if he's mafia get a bit convoluted. Possibly he was hoping to be around to "save" Greyblades from his own accusation himself once GB role revealed; possibly he was setting me up to do so, in either case as a means of gaining some badly-needed townie cred. Or possibly he had no idea who Lar Le'Ung was, and it really was a coincidence.

Finally, one last attempt to get him to commit to actually wanting to contact Qui-Gon Jinn, to which he responded:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm not sure if that fits my theory or not -- I thought maybe you were getting stuff out of the background information that Sigurd provided, but what you've said is too vague to tell.

How do you plan to contact Qui-Gon Jinn? As of right now it would seem you're under too much suspicion for him to really want to. What do he/you stand to gain from it?

Plausible, I would say they could be somewhat related.

Hopefully a hint will pop up. If not, it doesn't matter too much. The main issue is getting the correct lynches. And I get the feeling that Greyblades is just that, the correct lynch.

This is one instance in which I think most townies would fish, and fish hard, to find out if I knew anything about Jinn or had any way of finding out. But he didn't.

A couple more points in the next post.

[autolycus]

Wait, if I read the write-up right, Obi-wan was blocked last night. Doesn't that mean he's innocent?

[Renata]

There are some suggestive connections between Niklas and Psychonaut, given the circumstances of this game. First, see the post Beskar linked a few comments up. It's the post in which he accuses Niklas way back on day one. Who's jokingly defending Niklas? Psychonaut. Then there's Psychonaut's big push to get Niklas lynched on the same day that Yaseikhaan ultimately died. This would be nonsensical, *except for* Niklas' lynch immunity, which he'd had for a day or two by then. Niklas was already getting heat -- it's far from unreasonable (nor atypical to Niklas' high-risk playstyle) to assume he might seek to gain town credit for himself by having his teammate assist in proving the one aspect of his role that could be proven. Finally, Niklas' reaction to the idea that Psychonaut was scummy was a bit inconsistent. He called my assertion that Psychonaut's suggestion that Khaan was suspicious "far-fetched" as a possible bussing attempt -- which it was, admittedly -- but then ALSO characterized as far-fetched my theory that Psychonaut's subsequent vote-switch from Niklas to AVSM (which was completely backwards to his previously-stated statement of greater suspicion for Khaan than for AVSM) was intended to save 'Khaan. Which maybe in fact it was! - if Khaan was not mafia. But I couldn't know that. Niklas shouldn't have been able to know that. And so it didn't deserve the label of far-fetched. And regardless, Psychonaut's self-contradiction in the space of a few posts is a classic mafia tell. This is one of the only things Niklas ever said to me in private that pinged, though I haven't been able to make full sense of it until now. Or at least I think I have.

Not long after that Niklas was fully on the Psychonaut bandwagon, which as I've stated before would clearly be the right play for him if he and Psychonaut are both mafia, particularly with recruitment as a possibility after Psychonaut's inevitable outing and death.

Finally, the probable lies from Psychonaut as regards his visit to the holocron and what it did to his usual Force Sight ability. I think if every other piece of evidence I have on him is ignored, this should not be. Beskar flat-out contradicted the idea that a holocron visit would interrupt the use of investigation abilities. Somebody else is saying they visited the holocon themselves that same night, and only one person is shown in the write-up as having done so. The preponderance of evidence says that it is Psychonaut who is lying.

Now, the evidence in Psychonaut's favor, which boils down to: one single, solitary roleblock (which Chaotix confirmed it was, if no one else has mentioned). Assuming the roleblock ability itself is real despite the timing issues, then the only way Psychonaut could be mafia is if he is roleblock-immune. I see no reason to fully assume that he is not, whatever the write-up may say about hallways and headaches, and whatever the likelihood that this is all a case of some horrible confirmation bias. (But the lie about the holocron can't be bias.) I would like Psychonaut investigated tonight, to settle this one way or the other. Absolutely worst case, Niklas and Psychonaut are both innocent, and this is some plot cooked up by a mafia Qui-Gon Jinn and whoever the roleblocker is. But Chaotix has that information, and hopefully can sort through the possibilities tomorrow if Psychonaut is reported as being mafia and the game does not subsequently end.

I think he needs to be investigated.

[Niklas]

Well, if Niklas is mafia, I called it first - link

O RLY?

[Niklas]

Impressive effort, Renata.

[Beskar]

NOOOO Busted by Sasaki again!!!!

Also, you forgot something, Renata. The Sith could have two night-actions. Only one night-action was role-blocked.

[TinCow]

This is one instance in which I think most townies would fish, and fish hard, to find out if I knew anything about Jinn or had any way of finding out. But he didn't.

You're saying Psychonaut is scummy because he wasn't trying to figure out Qui-Gon's identity?

[Secura]

You're saying Psychonaut is scummy because he wasn't trying to figure out Qui-Gon's identity?

The PMs between them both mention that he would need to find Qui-Gon to extend his learning or something, don't they?

If I had a PM saying "find Jedi Master Dooku and you'll learn from him", I'd have done so without a shadow of a doubt... might not have died as an Initiate if that had been the case.

[atheotes]

NOOOO Busted by Sasaki again!!!!

Also, you forgot something, Renata. The Sith could have two night-actions. Only one night-action was role-blocked.

that is a strong possibility given that Jedi masters were upgraded to use 2 actions.

[Renata]

In looking at my PMs again just now I noticed I actually TOLD Niklas that I'd be fishing, so ... Yeah. But even disregarding that - the original post set the bait. I certainly would have expected a legit townie to respond differently than Psychonaut did.

[TinCow]

The PMs between them both mention that he would need to find Qui-Gon to extend his learning or something, don't they?

If I had a PM saying "find Jedi Master Dooku and you'll learn from him", I'd have done so without a shadow of a doubt... might not have died as an Initiate if that had been the case.

Please point out where it says that, all I can find it this:

Qui-Gon Jinn - I seem to be trying to reach out to him. His back is turned.

which looks like Psychonaut giving a brief summary of the descriptive elements of his results PM.

[edit] NM, I see it:

Qui-Gon Jinn - seems if I find him my "understanding" may improve.

Yes, that it interesting. I'll have to study the case closer.

[Secura]

Please point out where it says that.

I was suggesting this part:

Night 3:
Qui-Gon Jinn - seems if I find him my "understanding" may improve.

Not surprising, considering Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's master-padawan relationship... but why has Psychonaut made no in-roads to finding Qui-Gon? That is why it seems scummy to people, I believe.

[Renata]

Impressive effort, Renata.

Thank you for saying you'll keep me around as lynch bait. I truly appreciate it.

WIFOM, holla!

[Yaropolk]

vote: niklas same as my vote last 2 rounds

[Renata]

Also, Sasaki pretty much wins forever for pretending to have an investigation result on Niklas in the very first post of the very first day of the game.

[naut]

@ Renata: The only response I will give is a Tribesman like:

You're like the school teacher who keeps trying to catch the limbless diabetic kid with his hands in the cookie jar. And like that diabetic kid, I have no hands and I'm not interested in cookies.