So, I am the only one thinking things are going downhill in Europe?

[PanzerJaeger]

Almohads....

Such a great faction! European armor with CAMELS!

[Fragony]

I think the issue has more to do with poverty and a lack of social mobility, more than anything else. I, like Beskar, come from The North, and I come from a particularly white part of it. There were no non white kids at my primary school, there must have been no more than six non-white kids at my secondary school, out of a student body of 1,500, and there are maybe a few more at my college, which is of a similar size.

And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.

There are lies, bold lies and leftist truths. Fear huh, well drilled

[Meneldil]

People migrate and people mix it has been happening since the dawn of time. As long as Western culture and ideals stay intact who cares how many natives there are?

That's precisely the issue, the people I'm talking about, who make up the most vocal - if not the most numerous - part of African immigration don't want to mix, don't give a damn about the so-called "Western values" and despise french and white people.

Well, I don't agree. Infact, it would be hard for me to agree.

That's fine for you. I don't have problems with the brown immigrants who work hard and behave like any normal person (that is, as long as they don't suddenly become muslim nutjobs at some point, which seems to be another weird developement of late). Sad part is, anytime I meet one of them, I'm puzzled. Because that's a rare sight.

I live in Southern France, in Montpellier. The city (like most of the South) is known for its high unemployement, poverty and crime rate. And weirdly, it is also know for its huge arab population. The same goes for most of the towns with many colored people: Toulouse, Marseilles, Strasbourg, Paris suburban area...

Yall invited them in the firstplace no?

You need them don't you?

No and no. My state invited their parents and grandparents, before I was born. At a time when Western Europe was desperately looking for people willing to do the dirty works. Nowadays, unemployement has skyrocked, and we certainly do not need anymore people to feed and to welfare-ize.

And yet, there is a pervasive, all-encompassing fear of immigrants, and immigration. Never mind the fact that immigration is negligible in my community. Never mind the fact that immigrants have a (general) economic benefit to the nation. Never mind the countless statistics that prove that immigrants are less likely to cause crime, put less strain on public services etc. It is so utterly out of proportion that it cannot be called anything other than how Gordon Brown called it, bigotry.

Care to enlighten me with your sources? In France, Arabs and Blacks make up for 60% of the people in prison, while only being ~15% of the country's population. Less likely to cause crime my ass. As for the positive effect on national economies, I'm more than willing to see your sources. Until then, I'll scream bollox.

Even if it were the case, so what? I don't give a damn about the positive economical aspects of a population that generally hates me, hates my family, hates my culture and my country and think it has a historical entitlement to do so.

You can throw all the lame excuses regarding these population lack of will to integrate: racism, colonialism, economical exploitation in the 60's, worldwide victimization of muslims... I don't give a crap. I wasn't there in the 60's, never asked them to come, I'm not an Israeli colon in Cisjordania. I protested against racism and intolerance, and what did I get in return? Scorn and hatred from the very same people I thought I was helping. So scorn and hatred is what they shall expect from me now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Why don't you just make it a requirement to become a citizen if you are to legally immigrate to France or wherever. I assume in the citizenship process you must learn the cultures history and western ideals. At least make it obvious upfront that this is way we operate and this is our culture that you must behave to it if you want to live with us. Dont just say hey thanks for coming here from Algeria and then treat them with hostility 24/7 when they go about living like an Algerian and not a French.

[Furunculus]

I'm opening this topic not because I've read some article, or seen something on TV, but as a result of some thoughts I've had lately, related to personal experiences. If you can't be bothered learning more about my life, just skip to the end part I guess. And sorry for the racist tone to my topic, if it does not respect the rules of the org, feel free to delete it.

I just had a talk with my little bro, about what he does in high school, his friends and what not. At first, we were simply discussing how his high-school has changed since I've been there, how are some profs doing, etc.. But quickly, the topic moved onto racial (or ethnical, as us french don't like the idea of race) tensions in said high-school. And it kind of shocked me to learn that most of my bro's friends are slowly becoming racists. They consider most arabs to be scums, thieves and generally, big vulgarisms. And so does my bro.

Now, I don't know how things were when you were 14-18 (my bro is 18), but back when I was young, racism was a big taboo among me and my friends. An oftenly-used insult was "facho" (a slang word for fascist). Sure, we all had our occasional problems/fights with some arab scum, but that was about it. We considered it was part of life and mostly got over it. When Le Pen (far right leader) made it to the second turn of the Presidential election, we all took the street, and shown our support to the black and brown population. My family encouraged me to do so. And proud we were, manifesting in support of freedom, tolerance and whatever. I remember some old arab shopkeeper who offered us free drinks during the protest. Poor guy was almost crying, and I was moved by him.

Nowadays, (almost ten years later) when I meet the same old friends, (some of them are still leftist hippies by all standards) racist jokes fly around, and even though we generally avoid the topic, we know we don't really hold arabs in our hearths.
Nowadays, my mum (socialist) who back then praised me when I protested against Le Pen call arabs with bad names and hate them with a passion.
Nowadays, my dad, who'd like to be a respectable, politically correct UMP-voter (right) often makes racist jokes too, and keep repeating "things are going to end badly".

We are all ashamed about it, but we all are racist of some sort. Whenever I get called names, whenever some guy tries to piss me off or to fight with me, sad to say, it's an arab. Whenever I see some macho-man scumbag calling girls 'sluts' in the street, it's an arab. Whenever I see a mean scum, it's an arab. And whenever I see an arab who doesn't look like and behave like a scum of earth or a religious nutjob, saddly, my first thought is "Wow, an arab who looks like you can have a civilized talk with him, crazy!".
I keep telling to myself "those are a minority, you can't blame all of them for the behavior of these ***holes". But I know it's pretty much useless. I don't have faith anymore.

I still get mad with some openly racist people I know (grandparents or what not), telling them the very same argument, but I don't believe it anymore. If I'd see that old arab shopkeeper again, I'd probably think "Meh, too bad for him, but he should have taught his kids to behave". I don't think I have an irrational hatred for colored people, as my two best girl-friends are respectively from Tahiti and Tunisia, but still.

It's quite telling that my Canadian girlfriend, who has lived in France for almost three months, thinks most arab youth in France are horrid scums (note that during these three months she had her share of issues with them). When she makes a comment about it, I don't know whether I should agree with her or stay politically correct and temper her thoughts with the same old "they're not all like this" argument. And you can't really accuse her of being a white racist imperialist scumbag either, as she's 3/4 native and kind of brown too.

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.

My fear is that this rise of racism, which seems to not be restricted to France (one just has to see what's going on in Italy, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland or Germany) is the result of a mix of state propaganda and societal trend caused by economic and political uncertainties. What if things weren't really worse now than they used to be in the past? What if my shameful feelings aren't caused by rational thinking, but by some insidious brainwashing? What if I'm only not reminding the cases where a white scum pissed me or someone else off? I genuinely can't think of such an event happening in the last five years, but heh.

As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist". Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.

what you describe is a direct consequence of:

too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.

too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.

i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.

europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.

it is that simple!

[Banquo's Ghost]

what you describe is a direct consequence of:

too much non-assimilated immigration breeding fear and contempt from 'swamped' locals.

too great an attempt to strip people of their national identity by coercing them to become 'european' which leads to zenophobia.

i have repeatedly said, and stand by the absolute truth of, the fact that the EU,s ultimate goal of creating a stable and liberal europe free from political extremism and war, will be a victim of the methods that federalists think will bring about this goal. i.e. ever deeper union.

europe achieved its best possible outcome before masttrict, everything since has been a retrograde step from the point of view of its first goal, the project should have stopped their. then we would not be having STUPID arguments about whether turkey is 'european' to be admitted.

it is that simple!

I don't agree that it is simply a matter of European policy. Sentiments like Menedil's have been expressed about outsiders for centuries. We can see similar fears being expressed in the thread on Mexican immigration to the USA. These feelings are exacerbated in the modern era by the factors of globalisation and welfare entitlements. The latter has created a substantial underclass, in which immigrant populations are over-represented.

You have argued eloquently in another thread that the BNP (for example, but equally most other European racist parties) is supported mostly by disaffected Labour voters. Globalisation has meant that it is far easier for people to travel from blighted homelands to the comparative wealth of developed countries and both governments and businesses have been complicit in exploiting this source of cheap labour to keep wages down. In economic downturns, the immigrants provide a convenient scapegoat as in former times.

The people most affected by these policies are the poor and uneducated, most of who have been consigned to the welfare state (or minimum wage, at best). Since they are already consigned to dire ghettos, the establishment of rival ghettos threatens their natural territory, as well as their means of subsistence. Previous posters have noted "chavs" and other tribal epithets - these are all labels for the disenfranchised, each group posing a threat to middle class equanimity. Various immigrant groups are merely additional sets embodying these anxieties.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are far too many immigrants in several European countries - but also far too big an underclass as a whole. In other words, far too many unproductive people - no-one seems to object to a law-abiding, well-integrated, tax-payer, be they immigrant or "native", do they? Since globalisation has too many advantages to forego, we need to address the issue of welfare as a priority - for both native and immigrant. It should not be possible for an immigrant to obtain any sort of welfare support that resembles anything like a lifestyle choice - any more than it should be possible for any citizen, native born or otherwise, to have children merely for the sake of getting state aid to live or any similar wheeze. Welfare reform would go a long way to addressing the economic incentives to settle in developed countries.

In parallel, I would advocate that businesses are held liable for the costs of making staff redundant instead of being able to pass these costs onto the state through welfare. The savings made by significantly reducing welfare dependency would be passed back to business through tax reductions. If a business wished to reduce costs by redundancy, it would have to make sure the affected people were supported until they got a new job. This would greatly reduce the use of immigrant, low-cost labour for short-term profit which can then be off-loaded onto the state when times get a little tough.

Thirdly, multi-culturalism and all its pernicious influences should be actively erased from policy. Language, literacy and numeracy standards should be enforced and citizenship examinations in line with Western secular values required - applied to the entire underclass, as well. Ghettoes existing on whatever lines must be disbanded - therefore housing policy must be completely reviewed in line with the suggestion on welfare reform. Allowing immigrants or anyone else to be sidelined (or sideline themselves) from productive society is a recipe for the sense of isolation and anger Menedil is witnessing now directed at him.

Europe's problem is not immigration per se, but the long-standing willingness to allow great numbers of people to fester without a stake in society. Those of us who do have such a stake are not only being drowned by the financial demands such a policy has imposed, but are also feeling threatened by those who, despite such generous help, feel entitled to more.

[Furunculus]

good post, i skim-read Melendil's post and replied to what i thought was being asked; about the expression of anger as racism as opposed to the cause of an angry underclass.

[Fragony]

Hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side. We have such a different take on just about everything. The only thing we have in common is that there are always more good people then bad ones, that is not an excuse for cultural relativation, we are no equals we are centuries ahead of them. They simply do not belong here.

disclaimer: they are welcome to live here as long as they keep to OUR rules and don't try to impose THEIR'S (that hardly happens though it's more of a leftist hobby to go full frontal when one does) , but that's that and that should be more than enough.

[Hax]

European armor with CAMELS!

Everything is better with camels.

I hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side.

I don't buy that. It's not clash of civilizations, but rather a mixture of them. You can see that happening in the Maghribi countries, for example.

[Fragony]

Everything is better with camels.



I don't buy that. It's not clash of civilizations, but rather a mixture of them. You can see that happening in the Maghribi countries, for example.

No it's not a clash of civilisations, it's forced cooperation, a dream for dreamers. Not going to work, as Meneldil dad said it's going to be bad. And everybody will wonder why and blame everything but noble intentions.

[Beskar]

Plenty of room in Wales too.....

That is actually incorrect. According to the figures, Great Britain can only support London.

By this, it requires the entire resources of England, Scotland Wales, etc to actually support London alone. The only reason we have the population as massive as it is, is because of massive importing of goods.

[gaelic cowboy]

Actually a place like England is better off overcrowded mainly because it's temperate climate and it's narrow land mass allows easy transport of goods. larger countries end up just wasting loads off space cos its awkward to use it fully.

[Furunculus]

lol, on the subject of europe going down-hill, get a load of this:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...f=weekinreview

[Furunculus]

Hey Furunculus, this might be a stupid question.. but why don't they cancel eachothers debts with eachother, for example:

Spain owes Ireland $30, Ireland owes Spain $16, why don't they just make it so Spain owes Ireland $14?

As for the "Greek Bailout" why don't Germany+France+Britain just put an extension on their loan or similar or a temporary pause or at a reduced rate? Then there would be no need for the bail-out at all, or since the bail-out is basically giving Greece free money, why not just cancel part of the debt they owe instead?


All-in-all, why are they making it far more complicated then it needs to be?

because it is mostly private debt, so each respective treasury would not only have to do a debt swap, they would also have to pay-out the private equity in their country that lent the money in the first place, and i can well imagine that the larger creditor would be unwilling to transfer the additional risk inside their own economy, when really it belongs outside with the original debtor country.

[Megas Methuselah]

Hate to say the boringly obvious, but what if Islamic and Western culture are just too different to live side by side. We have such a different take on just about everything. The only thing we have in common is that there are always more good people then bad ones, that is not an excuse for cultural relativation, we are no equals we are centuries ahead of them. They simply do not belong here.

Huh. We seem to get along perfectly well in Canada. Not my fault you people are so damn intolerant.

[Fragony]

Huh. We seem to get along perfectly well in Canada. Not my fault you people are so damn intolerant.

We are in fact too tolerant for the intolerant, there is a small but vocal minority that is simply hostile towards anything that isn't muslim in their eyes, including other muslims . Would be a minor problem if it weren't for leftist xenophiles coming to their aid.

[Hax]

We are in fact too tolerant for the intolerant, there is a small but vocal minority that is simply hostile towards anything that isn't muslim in their eyes, including other muslims .

Exactly. So why do you think they would gain support from other Muslims?

Would be a minor problem if it weren't for leftist xenophiles coming to their aid

I don't think that anyone in their right minds, including TEH LEFTIES would ever support a group of people that is actively trying to harm other people. It's common sense.

[Fragony]

Exactly. So why do you think they would gain support from other Muslims?

They don't, modern muslims are smarter than lefties they know exactly what I am talking about.

Common sense, yeah who in their right mind would support that, but you know what my answer is. And I am not talking about people like AdrianII or Menendil who would gladly give the finger just when I do. I am talking about very confused westeners.

[Fragony]

Good read for those who can http://docstalk.blogspot.com/2010/04...ration-of.html

Leftists know that it is the social-economic situation, but is it? Explains robbery but not the violent nature of these robberies. Leftists know that it is because they are dissapointed in society, but maybe it's hate? Leftists know that simply isn't true, but maybe it is?

edit: cynical post needs some feelgood (Dutch) http://www.geenstijl.tv/2010/04/rutg...aal_kapot.html

[Skullheadhq]

There are lies, bold lies and leftist truths. Fear huh, well drilled

It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?
Also, you should stop reading 'De Telegraaf', it's populist crap.

[Fragony]

They aren't automatically victims of society because they are Arabs.

And yeah Telegraaf sucks I read Elsevier for news.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Let's not trend toward personal attacks or trolling please, keep things on track.

[Louis VI the Fat]

And this feeling is pretty widely shared as far as I can tell. I still know some people who go on ranting about how France is a fascist country, about how immigrants are oppressed and victims of racism daily, about how the cops are responsible for every outburst of violence, but they're a tiny minority. The rest of the people balance between a politely (or cowardly) hidden angerness and open hatred.



As I type this, I don't really know what the purpose of this thread is. Maybe it's some kind of cry for help: "Help me, I'm becoming racist". Or maybe I just wanted to express my feelings regarding a scary and disturbing evolution of our society and of myself.

I understand what the purpose is. I feel exactly the same. Except that I am less singularly obsessive about Arabs - I have issues with West Africans too.

Much to my own surprise, I've turned into a frustrated, petty bourgeois racist. As have a lot of other people.


Sad, isn't it?

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's a lie they steal because they're poor, they steal because they're Arab, right Frag?

Frags posted an interesting article by a Danish psychologist. Not that I agree with the conclusions.

Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed.

Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.

[Hax]

Muslims make up 60%-70% of the prison population in France, and apparantly Denmark too, yet they constitute by no means 60-70% of poor people. This would suggest that poverty is not the cause indeed.

A: 60-70% of all prisoners in France are Muslim
B: Thus, Islam is the reason of them going to prison.

It's a non sequitur. One should examine the precise reason why they've been sent to prison. I don't think Islam has too much to do with it. If Morocco or Algeria had been Christian, I think there'd be quite a portion of Algerians and Moroccans in prison as well.

Another well observed phenomenon is that the first generation are mostly hard-working people, doing low-wage jobs. It is their sons and grandsons who fill the crime statistics. You know - the boys with their expensive mopeds, newest cell phones, and designer clothes.

Which is quite intruiging. I personally think that one of the main reasons for them commiting those crimes is the fact that they feel neither Arab nor French. I think there are several factors that one should keep in mind;

1) The original immigrants were people of the lowest socio-economical class. There is a tendency that shows that these people are also not the most intelligent people.
2) Their children suffer from something of a cultural shock, as they feel neither French nor Arab. A low intelligence combined with a lack of social structure or a cultural identity would increase the chances of those people engaging in crime.

On the other hand, we have also noticed that over the last ten years or so, that in the Netherlands, there is a continual growth of Morrocan and Turkish people going to university. I don't think the multicultural society has totally failed, I just think we handled it in a wrong way. And no, the "good" way is not expediating all of them.



Interestingly, the University of Twente has done research on Morrocans and Turks living in autochtonous places, and apparently, if there are a lot of autochtones living in an area, the immigrants feel more Dutch. I think this is something of an instinctive reaction of adaptation. It also (kinda) refutes the statements by this Danish psychologist. So basically; the whiter the neighbourhood, the more Dutch immigrants feel.

Link, in Dutch: http://www.uvt.nl/onderzoek/uitgesproken/havekes/

[Fragony]

If you read the article you would have known she blames it on the culture of people from islamic cultures, not the islam. True or not, what is most interesting is that such conclusions weren't allowed professionally, only social-economic considerations are to be considered.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?


Louis:

I suspect the bourgoie tendencies go along with your advancing age -- remember Churchill's quip on switching parties -- and not so much to do with any racist attitude. I suspect that you'd interact just fine with anyone from these backgrounds if they sat down for polite conversation and a hunk of baguette. It's the behavior/attitude set you have trouble tolerating, not the irrelevant difference in melanin.

[Fragony]

Immigrants to the USA tended to be no smarter, and no less intelligent, than any other largish group of people. They did tend to be woefully undereducated. Is that not also being replicated in Europe?

What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.

[Ironside]

What if they don't care about education? These guys are a lost generation and they don't give a crap, they care about nice cars and Prada shoes, and no they don't have to watch the people they rob having such cars and shoes, they rob grannies. The rare one that achieves something by hard work and ambition they spit on, 'verkaast' (cheesed) is an insult.

The question on why they do this should obviously follow. Particulary if they are children of working (if still lower class) parents.

[Fragony]

The question on why they do this should obviously follow. Particulary if they are children of working (if still lower class) parents.

Well if nothing is ever your personal responsibility I don't have to think very hard for an answer.