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  1. #1201
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    When is it alright to be a Right-wing extremist? When you're pro-EU, apparently:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...-youre-pro-eu/
    Hungarian politics are in terrible shape - two major blocks which are fighting each other attracting also extremists. And it continues for almost two decades...
    Now there is Jobbik which is of course an abomination and their popularity rather scary. The fact that Fidesz is attempting to steal some of their voters is not a suprise in so fierce and divided political landscape.

    Anyway I was against the entire 'Tories ally themselves with far-right' nonsense because of its grotesque exaggeration (reading the Guardian was a torture those days), but Fidesz both crossed some lines and is in such a situation they really have little choice.
    Not that it didn't happen also thanks to their actions, of course. They are literally consuming the fruits of their labour - disgusting, similar to certain brownish substance but something they have to do, apparently. Live and learn.


    That doesn't change the fact that in my opinion the entire 'reformist' group is in my opinion a joke. Not my problem - let the Tories worry about they are siding with not really extremists (wierd and stupid - not extremists), but political losers.

    Good work.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
    Hungarian politics are in terrible shape - two major blocks which are fighting each other attracting also extremists. And it continues for almost two decades...
    Now there is Jobbik which is of course an abomination and their popularity rather scary. The fact that Fidesz is attempting to steal some of their voters is not a suprise in so fierce and divided political landscape.

    Anyway I was against the entire 'Tories ally themselves with far-right' nonsense because of its grotesque exaggeration (reading the Guardian was a torture those days), but Fidesz both crossed some lines and is in such a situation they really have little choice.
    Not that it didn't happen also thanks to their actions, of course. They are literally consuming the fruits of their labour - disgusting, similar to certain brownish substance but something they have to do, apparently. Live and learn.


    That doesn't change the fact that in my opinion the entire 'reformist' group is in my opinion a joke. Not my problem - let the Tories worry about they are siding with not really extremists (wierd and stupid - not extremists), but political losers.

    Good work.
    let me get this straight; when an EPP member adopts socially divisive populist policies to reduce the appeal of a more radical party it is sensible electoral positioning, but when the tories create a ant0-federal grouping of parties which include a few with populist tendancies then they are weird and stupid losers?

    lol, that sounds like exactly the latent bias that Hannan was alluding too.

    Good work.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  3. #1203
    Crusading historian Member cegorach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    let me get this straight; when an EPP member adopts socially divisive populist policies to reduce the appeal of a more radical party it is sensible electoral positioning, but when the tories create a ant0-federal grouping of parties which include a few with populist tendancies then they are weird and stupid losers?

    lol, that sounds like exactly the latent bias that Hannan was alluding too.

    Good work.
    Nope. They are siding with losers because parties such as nationalist-populist Law and Justice are losers. And in addition they are distasteful, even if the stupid accusations against Mr. Kamiński were never launched.

    The fact that in Hungary Fidesz is hardly the best option anyone could dream about isn't questionable, but definetely they are important in Hungary.


    If you are dealing with less than predictable people, less normal than true, civilised political parties it should be done for a purpose.

    Why the Tories associate themselves with not only nutcases/extravagant people (reader's choice) but also with political pariahs tells a story either about their poor political experience, incompetence or lack of judgement and is a problem for their British voters. There must be something behind the alliance with a party hatred of which became a new national sport in Poland in 2006.

    Apparently they thought it can work better this way. We will see what happens to the group when it loses some members and it is very likely to happen, most likely even more after the aircraft tragedy and earlier presidential elections in two months (instead of six).

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    in short; disagreed, and we'll see.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    in other news, the economist suggest blackmailing greece over macedonia by threatening to withhold the bail-out:
    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...most_commented

    I think it is a great idea, and would second hannan's idea that turkey should offer greece cash in return for no opposition to its membership.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    in other news, the economist suggest blackmailing greece over macedonia by threatening to withhold the bail-out:
    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...most_commented

    I think it is a great idea, and would second hannan's idea that turkey should offer greece cash in return for no opposition to its membership.
    That's a cool article, and sums up my feelings exactly. And the comments are just to die for:

    What may look to many "outsiders" a "stupid" name dispute, to Greeks is part of an idealized, proud, and in contrast to our future, glorious raison d'être.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    for your further amusement:

    London bond trader creates JustGiving page to help Greece ... £398 down, £99,999,602 to go:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...602-to-go.html

    Good news at last for Greece. The heavily indebted country has found a saviour in the unlikely form London bond trader Jim Croft.


    By Jonathan Russell
    Published: 4:08PM BST 09 Apr 2010

    The City worker has set up a charity appeal on donations website justgiving.com to raise £100m to bail the country out.

    “Greece is in a deep financial crisis,” he explains on the site. “Donating here will go along way to helping these poor people who have lived beyond their means for the last 10 years and are now struggling to pay their bills."

    “Please think of them as they avoid their taxes and then blame evil speculators rather than face up to the fact that lying about their national statistics was probably more of a factor."

    "Please donate in pounds as all euro payments will soon be subject to a 50pc haircut.”


    So far £398 has been raised.

    Donations include £15 from someone calling themselves Angela Merkel with the touching comment “Greek swine”.

    A certain Anthony Chisnall has promised £10 but only if they stop smashing all their crockery. Mr Turkey said he would donate £10 in return for an island.

    Even the British Museum is reported on the site to have stumped up a tenner along with the message: “Have you lost your marbles.”


    “I set it up as a bit of a giggle on a quiet Friday morning but then people started donating money, which is great," Mr Croft told Reuters. “It all goes to charity (Oxfam) in the end, so that's good.”

    There is apparently no stipulation on donors giving their real names.


    ROFLMAO!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    That's pretty excellent :D

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Apparently , the massively arrogant leader of the EPP has offered to let the conservatives back in to their club:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7095795.ece
    EU centre-right awaits return of Cameron
    David Charter in Brussels

    Europe’s centre-right politicians expect David Cameron to rejoin them if he wins the general election so that he can meet Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy regularly, the group’s organiser said yesterday.
    Mr Cameron cut himself off from mainstream leaders in Europe by his alliance with “exotic” MEPs from Eastern Europe in the European Parliament, said Antonio López-Istúriz, secretary-general of the European People’s Party. This was also damaging Conservative relations with the Republican Party in the US, he claimed.

    As prime minister, Mr Cameron would need to have regular contact in Britain’s interests with the EPP’s 13 EU prime ministers including those of France, Italy, the Netherlands, Poland and Sweden.
    The Conservative leader decided to pull his MEPs out of the EPP group to establish his Eurosceptic credentials during his leadership campaign. One of the group’s aims is the political union of the EU. Mr Cameron formed a new group last year with MEPs from right-wing Belgian, Czech, Polish, Latvian and Hungarian parties, none of which is presently in government.

    Mr López-Istúriz said he expected Mr Cameron’s group to disintegrate, pointing to the failure of his Hungarian partners to win any MPs in that country’s elections on Sunday. He said Dan Hannan, an outspoken Tory MEP and supporter of Britain’s withdrawal from the EU, had too much influence.
    Mr Cameron is keen to keep Europe off the election agenda but opponents rarely miss a chance to highlight the homophobic views of the Tories’ Polish partners.
    “We want David Cameron to win these elections,” Mr López-Istúriz said. “I believe that he will make a pragmatic choice after the elections [to return to the EPP]. I do not understand how European affairs can be left to people like Dan Hannan. He was the character behind this exotic group they have built in the European Parliament.
    “They have some disturbing ideas, not only about Europe but also gay rights. Even people like Iain Duncan Smith and Michael Howard were participating in our meetings with prime ministers. They brought a critical voice but it was inside the family, part of an internal debate.”
    He said the US presidential candidate John McCain, head of the International Republican Institute, had urged Mr Cameron to rejoin the federalist group or “lose their privileged position with the Republican Party”.
    A Conservative Party spokesman said: “Given the many meetings and conversations David Cameron and William Hague have had with European heads of government and foreign ministers over the past few months, we do not feel particularly isolated.”

    Is this man a complete blithering idiot, we'll see what happens after the election, and if call-me-dave doesn't go grovelling back to the EPP I think we can agree that the judgement of the leader of the EPP is DEEPLY questionable!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In other news, even the arch federalist Charlamagne of the Economist is getting thoroughly hacked off with the EPP's arrogance:
    http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...ative_grandees
    EU Christian Democrats to David Cameron: apologise for your silliness, young man, and we might just let you back
    Apr 13th 2010, 9:37 by Charlemagne
    REGULAR readers will know that I think Britain's Conservatives made a mistake when they pulled their Euro-troops out of the largest centre-right group in the European Parliament, the European People's Party. Despite its Che Guevara name, this is an alliance of the continent's largest Christian Democrat and conservative parties, 13 of whom are currently in government, 14 assuming a right-wing win in the second round of the Hungarian elections.
    I think the Tories lost influence by walking away from a group that includes not just the ruling parties of France, Germany and Italy, but also parties which are probably closest in world view to the leadership group of David Cameron, notably the ruling Moderates in Sweden. I think David Cameron offered to leave the EPP as a sop to the right of his party at a particular moment in his campaign to become party leader, under the misapprehension that all sorts of ideologically appealing partners would flock to his side in a new group. But I think he was being advised by colleagues who have a very different view of what makes an ideologically appealing partner. Thus they could see nothing very wrong with joining Law and Justice from Poland, despite members of that party with a record of nasty comments about gay rights and (in their youth) confused positions on the Holocaust. Indeed some Conservative MEPs involved in the hunt for new allies were keen to invite the People's Party from Denmark to join.
    I wrote this after the last Euro-election, and stand by it:

    "Mr Cameron has managed to avoid the extreme right, but he has broken with large mainstream parties.
    In Poland, the governing centre-right party is the Civic Platform. To the far right sit fringe politicians with openly anti-Semitic views. Mr Cameron’s allies are in the middle, with wrong-headed opinions on gays and capital punishment. In Belgium, the Christian Democrats belong to the EPP. Mr Cameron has nothing to do with the anti-immigrant parties on the far right, but his allies are from the Lijst Dedecker, a populist outfit that wants independence for Dutch-speaking Flanders. In the Netherlands too, the largest party, the Christian Democrats, is in the EPP. Mr Cameron has eschewed the anti-Islamist Geert Wilders but his partners are from the tiny Christian Union, which favours government guided by biblical commandments. And the Tories’ sole Latvian chum is a mild-mannered economist, a wing of whose party annually honours Latvians who fought with the Waffen SS against Soviet forces.
    Mr Cameron’s real problem is structural. Europe makes even centrist voters cross in Britain, yet centrists on the continent are overwhelmingly pro-EU. So to find allies who share their Euroscepticism, Tories have to seek out populists and angry nationalists. Mr Cameron’s new band of allies may be a symptom of Britain’s strained relationship with Europe rather than a solution to it."


    So all in all, it is quite a surprise for me this morning to find myself, for the first time, in grudging sympathy with Mr Cameron in his rejection of the EPP. I have always found continental Christian Democrats slightly hard to love, to be honest. The EPP is a very broad church, whose French or Greek members are far to the left of the British Labour party when it comes to economic liberalism and globalisation, and whose Spanish and Italian members include some social conservatives whose views I find pretty repellent. Most of all, it is a power cartel, and it shows. The EPP holds party summits in castles, palaces and the like, and loves all that folderol of limousines crunching up gravel drives to drop off powerful men and women. EPP views on Europe are often the epitome of smug complacency: aren't we marvellous in Europe, and aren't the Americans rather ghastly etc etc.
    And this morning? Well the press carries reports of a briefing by the secretary general of the EPP, Antonio López-Istúriz, graciously inviting Mr Cameron to accept the error of his ways and return to the EPP after the British elections, on condition that the Conservatives understand that they can only enter on the EPP's terms, and must sign up to all the EPP's values (which would, for example, involve the Tories dropping their previous opposition to the Lisbon Treaty). By way of incentive, Mr López-Istúriz noted that the new group formed by the Conservatives, the ECR, was full of "exotic" parties that were damaging their reputation, and was likely to break up for lack of members.
    According to the Times:

    Mr López-Istúriz said he expected Mr Cameron’s group to disintegrate, pointing to the failure of his Hungarian partners to win any MPs in that country’s elections on Sunday. He said Dan Hannan, an outspoken Tory MEP and supporter of Britain’s withdrawal from the EU, had too much influence.
    Mr Cameron is keen to keep Europe off the election agenda but opponents rarely miss a chance to highlight the homophobic views of the Tories’ Polish partners.
    “We want David Cameron to win these elections,” Mr López-Istúriz said. “I believe that he will make a pragmatic choice after the elections [to return to the EPP]. I do not understand how European affairs can be left to people like Dan Hannan. He was the character behind this exotic group they have built in the European Parliament."


    I have known Dan Hannan for years, and we disagree about a great deal. He is a supporter of withdrawal from the EU, for one thing, and we have clashed several times in public debates. But there is no denying he has a big following among the Tory grassroots, thanks to endless speaking gigs at constituency dinners up and down the country, a blog and high-profile speaking slots at party conferences. He had a public run-in a while ago with one of the biggest grandees in the EPP, Hans-Gert Pöttering, which I for one always thought looked a bit staged. Anyway, it got Mr Hannan expelled from the EPP which suited him down to the ground.
    According to New Europe, a weekly published in Brussels, Mr Hannan's presence in the Tories might be an issue still.

    Lopez-Isturiz said the EPP wanted a Conservative victory in the British general election on 6 May, and that he expected conservative leader, David Cameron to "be pragmatic" and apply to rejoin their group. However, he said that they would have to reapply and there was no chance that they would be able to negotiate, saying, that they would have to join on the EPP terms and sign up to the group's values and programme. An application to join, "would not be an easy dossier" for the party and he mentioned remarks by Hannan towards Hans Gert-Pottering, who is "not happy to have Hannan around".


    The two pieces I have quoted were sent to me this morning by a kindly EPP press officer (I am in Paris today). In the interest of candour, here is my full email reply to that press officer:

    You know I thought the Tory breakaway was a mistake. And I don't rule out the ECR could fall apart, but if the EPP thinks it is clever politics to criticise the Tories before an election while announcing they might be allowed to rejoin the EPP on terms set by a magnanimous EPP (including the ditching of a grassroots favourite, Hannan, at the request of a German grandee) then the EPP secretary general should find another line of work
    .
    Right, so he IS a blithering idiot, if he believes that will be an attractive opportunity to a newly elected prime minister of a euro-skeptic party in a euro-skeptic country!

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dan's response to the two above, seeing as he is the centre of attention:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...-line-of-work/
    The Economist’s Charlemagne column was, as you’d expect, sceptical when the Conservatives left the palaeo-federalist EPP. But the sheer mulishness of the Christian Democrats seems to be exasperating even their natural supporters. Here is Charlemagne’s latest blog:

    The EPP is a very broad church, whose French or Greek members are far to the left of the British Labour party when it comes to economic liberalism and globalisation, and whose Spanish and Italian members include some social conservatives whose views I find pretty repellent. Most of all, it is a power cartel, and it shows. The EPP holds party summits in castles, palaces and the like, and loves all that folderol of limousines crunching up gravel drives to drop off powerful men and women. EPP views on Europe are often the epitome of smug complacency: aren’t we marvellous in Europe, and aren’t the Americans rather ghastly etc etc.


    Charlemagne is irked by what he sees as the pomposity of the EPP Secretary-General, a Spanish MEP called Antonio López-Istúriz, who has grandly invited the Tories to rejoin. To be fair, I’m not sure it’s pomposity, so much as a failure to understand the dynamics of British politics. Some years ago, when he got wind of the idea that we might be leaving the EPP, Mr López-Istúriz came to see me in my office. The key issue, he said, was blocking German mastery of the EU. The Germans were naturally domineering, he added with a significant look, and would run everything if there were no Brits to counterbalance them.
    He had picked the wrong person to say this to, of course. As regular readers will know, I am deeply Germanophile. “It never ceases to surpise me,” I told him coldly, “how many federalist colleagues expect me to share their prejudices about Germany”. He mumbled awkwardly, and the conversation came to an end.
    Now I don’t think that the EPP Sec-Gen is a bigot. But he had assumed that British Euro-scepticism was simply a political expression of national antagonisms, and thought that the best way to appeal to British Tories was to pretend to share our imagined prejudices. He had made no effort to understand the economic, constitutional or democratic arguments which motivate British souverainistes: it was much easier simply to dismiss us all as xenophobes. And here’s the thing: his views are typical of many others in the EPP. Which is, of course, one of the many reasons we were right to leave.

    And it is still the right decision, you want a federalist party in power come May 6th vote labour.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-13-2010 at 13:38.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    oops, the EU's planned solidarity bail-out may stumble at the first hurdle; the german constitutional court, hoorah for the germans:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...challenge.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Is this man a complete blithering idiot, we'll see what happens after the election, and if call-me-dave doesn't go grovelling back to the EPP I think we can agree that the judgement of the leader of the EPP is DEEPLY questionable!.
    I don't mind the Conservatives being a member of that oddball group. It dilutes Eurosceptic influence in mainstream European politics, which is fine by me

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    I don't mind the Conservatives being a member of that oddball group. It dilutes Eurosceptic influence in mainstream European politics, which is fine by me
    i believe hannan has countered that by pointing out that the Cons didn't have much influence in the EPP anyway, seeing as they were one small fraction of a much larger federalist entity.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Seeing as no-one is going to listen to Hannan regardless of what faction he is in, he would say that.

    Now, the Eurocrats can ignore the Conservatives completely, thus saving the Union endless bureaucracy, meetings, consultation, haggling, debates, negotiations, rebates, Thatcherites etc, and continue with their job of building a European Super-State at peace.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Subotan View Post
    Seeing as no-one is going to listen to Hannan regardless of what faction he is in, he would say that.

    Now, the Eurocrats can ignore the Conservatives completely, thus saving the Union endless bureaucracy, meetings, consultation, haggling, debates, negotiations, rebates, Thatcherites etc, and continue with their job of building a European Super-State at peace.
    lol, i believe you will find that the sovereign nation-state hasn't died just yet!

    and that is a strange statement seeing as Hannan appears to be a driving force in the tory manifesto:
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...gn-revolution/
    Conservative manifesto: David Cameron proposes a benign revolution

    By Daniel Hannan Politics Last updated: April 13th, 2010

    It’s happened: The Plan has taken form as the Tory manifesto. Elected police chiefs, local and national referendums, fewer quangos, fewer MPs, recall mechanisms, a thorough clean-up of Westminster expenses, a curtailment of Crown Prerogative powers, more rights for backbenchers, parental choice in education, more power for local government. Hurrah! In fact, I’ll go futher. Calloo, callay!

    The Conservative Party’s prescriptions are based on an accurate diagnosis of what has gone wrong:

    The top-down model of power that exists in Britain today is completely out of date. The argument that has applied for well over a century – that in every area of life we need people at the centre to make sense of the world for us and take decisions on our behalf – has collapsed. We now live in an age when technology can put information that was previously held by a few into the hands of the many. This is an age of personal freedom and choice, when culture and debate are shaped by a multitude of voices. But politics has not caught up with this new age. Instead of giving people more power over their lives, we have a government intent on taking it away.

    As Paul Goodman observes: “It’s Hannan and Carswell as well as Cameron and Hilton”.

    Of course, there’s a lot more to the Tory manifesto than direct democracy. It’s main emphasis is – quite rightly – on reducing Britain’s crippling debt. But its essential premises – that government is too remote, that ministers should seek to devolve power rather than snatching at the levers of state control, that reform comes from below, that politicians don’t have all the answers, that we should all get involved - are spot on.

    This is a revolutionary manifesto. I use the word advisedly: this programme would amount to a turning of the wheel, a setting upright of that which has been placed on its head, so that the state becomes once again the servant of the citizen rather than the other way around. Don’t take my word for it: read the manifesto.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    in other news, the EU destroys English cricket bat industry:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...of-willow.html

    :p

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    and could it be germany that leaves the euro first?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...-from-EMU.html
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-16-2010 at 11:48.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    *laughs uproariously to myself*
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...689764,00.html

    EU Foreign Affairs Chief 'Out of Her Depth'
    Doubts Increase about Catherine Ashton's Ability


    Catherine Ashton is coming under increasing fire over her alleged unsuitability for the role of EU high representative for foreign affairs.
    Members of the European Parliament are becoming increasing critical of Catherine Ashton, the EU's high representative for foreign affairs. Ashton is incapable of setting up the EU's new diplomatic service, they argue.
    Four and a half months after Catherine Ashton took office as the European Union's high representative for foreign affairs, doubts are increasing about her suitability for the post.

    Ashton has no ideas and no plan, criticizes Inge Grässle, a member of the European Parliament for Germany's center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU). Ashton is "simply out of her depth" when it comes to setting up the EU's new diplomatic service, the European External Action Service (EEAS), Grässle told SPIEGEL. Things are "totally on the wrong track," she added.
    Different EU institutions are engaged in a power struggle over what form the EEAS should take. Amidst the wrangling, the idea of an efficient European diplomatic corps with up to 7,000 staff has "fallen by the wayside," complains Green Party Member of the European Parliament (MEP) Franziska Brantner.

    Elmar Brok, a CDU MEP who is the Parliament's official rapporteur on the EEAS, has even threatened a blockade. If the scramble for influence continues, there will be "no resolution" in the European Parliament and hence "no EEAS," he said.
    The European Parliament released a statement on Friday that was critical of the proposed structure of the EEAS which Ashton unveiled last month, with their main objections including convoluted decision-making procedures in key areas and the fact that the EEAS is not accountable to the parliament. MEPs also want the position of EEAS secretary-general, which would be Ashton's deputy, to be a political appointee, not a civil servant.

    The parliament has the power to block the EEAS budget if it does not like the structure of the service. EU foreign ministers are scheduled to discuss and possibly pass Ashton's proposal on April 26.

    Lack of Experience
    The Lisbon Treaty, which took effect in December 2009, calls for a diplomatic service to be set up but is vague about what form it should take. Supporters of the EEAS argue that Europe needs a diplomatic service to give it a stronger voice in the world.

    Ashton, who with a basic annual salary of around €323,000 ($435,000) is probably the world's highest-paid female politician, was chosen by EU leaders as the bloc's first high representative for foreign affairs in November 2009. Many observers criticized the choice, given the British politician's low profile and lack of foreign affairs experience. Since then she has been the focus of repeated criticism.
    According to sources in the European Parliament, current British Foreign Secretary David Miliband is already being discussed in Brussels as "a good substitute" and possible successor to Ashton.
    dgs/SPIEGEL
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    the eurozone slides closer to the edge:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...t-markets.html

    be a shame if cameron doesn't get in, be a hell of a wasted opportunity.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    I feel so sorry for Greece.

    Oh and: "There has never been a default in Western Europe since World War Two and the whole financial system is depending on the assumption that it cannot be allowed to happen." doesn't make me feel good either.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Not the EU but the Council of Europe, but the point remains, who the hell are these guys to tell Britain how to act?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/family/fa...rope-says.html


    Smacking ban delays caused by 'unwelcome government intrusion', Europe says
    Britain is one of the few countries in the world not to have completely banned smacking, European Union leaders say, as they called for a change in the law.


    By Andrew Hough
    Published: 8:00AM BST 26 Apr 2010
    Hand smacking childs legs: Smacking ban delays caused by 'unwelcome government intrusion', Europe says

    The British government’s “unwelcome” intrusion into family affairs was to blame for the delay in the complete ban of the practice, the Council of Europe warned.

    The Council, a body which monitors compliance with the European convention on Human rights, also blamed traditional parenting practices that were based on “authority”.

    The comments come ahead of a debate in Strasbourg on Tuesday where EU leaders and campaigners against the “corporal punishment of children” will criticise the UK government for not banning the practice completely.

    Maud de Boer-Buquicchio, deputy secretary general of the Council of Europe, said on Monday 20 countries had "formally abolished laws" against smacking since over the past three year.1998 ruling found it violated a child’s human rights.

    "The UK is one of the countries that has not yet implemented a full ban," she said.

    “In part, this is because the traditional parent-child relationship in the UK is one of authority [and] state intervention into family affairs is still not welcome.”


    The government last month announced that the legal loophole allowing private tutors to smack children in their care was to be closed after recommendations from Sir Roger Singleton, the head of the Independent Safeguarding Authority.

    Under current rules, smacking is banned in England's state and private schools but the law does not cover part-time education institutions, such as Sunday schools, private tutors or madrassas or adults in the home.

    Schools or teachers who take pupils for less than 12.5 hours a week are deemed to have the status of loco parentis, which allows them to administer a light smack under the defence of "reasonable punishment".

    A recent study from the University of Tulane in New Orleans found that smacking disobedient three-year-olds were more likely to be aggressive by age five.

    Ed Balls, the School’s Secretary, has indicated the government would not support a full ban, which he told The Guardian was a "sensible and proportionate approach".

    In 2008 a cross-party group of MPs failed to force through a ban in England and Wales on smacking children after there was just four hours to debate legislation in the Commons.

    Neither of the three parties has anything on smacking in their election manifestos.

    remember, we're all the same.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    germans are getting very dubious about bailing out greece:

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...691168,00.html

    hubris is a wonderful thing.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Our daniel is doing his best to rescue the london financial services industry:

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...yxiate-london/
    Last edited by Furunculus; 04-28-2010 at 23:24.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    The EU's high representative is doing a great job for Britain, here's hoping she lasts as long as possible dealing incompetence right and left:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...in-months.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    interesting article on the stark differences in expectations between the greek electorate and that of ireland, given their similar straits:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ir-plight.html

    seems like ireland has useful unions, we could do with some like that here, but again shows the difference between british expectations and irish, in the same way that french public services achieve much better efficiency than british counterparts probably because they hold public services and public service in much higher regard.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Reading the comments after the article is more depressing than the article you know honest to god I think we should ban comments on newspaper and tv news websites talk about troll city.

    Our unions are just as useless as British ones though Furunculus its just that in Ireland they take a day off for a strike and then run as fast as they can for the government tent to hammer a deal so both sides save face.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    they just appear so much more............. constructive.... than the jumped up little commissars you find in britain, a true zoo of the inadequates of british society. i can only hope yours really are better, it seems unfair that more than one nation should have to suffer under such a burden.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Our unions are calling for members to accept the deals on offer as the full horror of the crisis is laid bare before the people here. We even apparently have to borrow money for the Greeks thats borrow now mind you at a prohibitive interest rate to lend to Greece around 1.3 billion is the figure talked about and so far not a whimper from unions on it.

    I predict we never see that money again but we will lend because our banks are in to Greece for supposedly 6billion and also to calm the markets and get them to drop our interest rate for borrowing. Lucky for us the goverment has 60% of the funds for the year so far.

    Unions in Ireland are left wing in name only our country has never had a large working class union style economy. Labour in Irealnd is a public sector party hence in Ireland Labour traditionally serves in coalition with conservative parties small c and has no hang up about it.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 05-04-2010 at 15:06.
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    cheers for the detail, and given your point about irish lending to greece you may be interested in this:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...f=weekinreview
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Hey Furunculus, this might be a stupid question.. but why don't they cancel eachothers debts with eachother, for example:

    Spain owes Ireland $30, Ireland owes Spain $16, why don't they just make it so Spain owes Ireland $14?

    As for the "Greek Bailout" why don't Germany+France+Britain just put an extension on their loan or similar or a temporary pause or at a reduced rate? Then there would be no need for the bail-out at all, or since the bail-out is basically giving Greece free money, why not just cancel part of the debt they owe instead?


    All-in-all, why are they making it far more complicated then it needs to be?
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Hey Furunculus, this might be a stupid question.. but why don't they cancel eachothers debts with eachother, for example:

    Spain owes Ireland $30, Ireland owes Spain $16, why don't they just make it so Spain owes Ireland $14?

    As for the "Greek Bailout" why don't Germany+France+Britain just put an extension on their loan or similar or a temporary pause or at a reduced rate? Then there would be no need for the bail-out at all, or since the bail-out is basically giving Greece free money, why not just cancel part of the debt they owe instead?


    All-in-all, why are they making it far more complicated then it needs to be?
    because it is mostly private loaned debt, so each respective treasury would not only have to do a debt swap, they would also have to pay-out the private equity back to the lender in the country that lent the money in the first place, and i can well imagine that the larger creditor nation would be unwilling to transfer the additional risk inside their own economy, when really it belongs outside with the original debtor country.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    because it is mostly private debt, so each respective treasury would not only have to do a debt swap, they would also have to pay-out the private equity in their country that lent the money in the first place, and i can well imagine that the larger creditor would be unwilling to transfer the additional risk inside their own economy, when really it belongs outside with the original debtor country.
    I am guessing this is government debt though, right? While not merge all the debt into the national bank (for example, Bank of Ireland and Bank of Spain), and where there is interest involved, make the required adjustments, to cancel out the lessers debt.

    As it is the Euro-zone they could even take it a step-further, instead of interlending, they could establish the "Bank of Europe", where all debts get transferred to that. Then like banks in real-life, countries like Germany who did a lot of lending, does this through the "Bank of Europe". This means all the debt is also in the one place and not all over the show. Then these debts are transferred through the nations National Banks.

    Makes sense to me, anyway.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Yeah heard about that stuff Greece prob owes less outright but has less capacity to pay back Ireland owes more but has far greater ability to pay back in the medium to long term. Also we have borrowed a huge ammout on the bond markets to bail all our banks and no doubt thats reflected in the graphic I would imagine the EU/IMF deal is not represented in that graph for Greece yet.

    Couple of things to note our greater investment led to our banks borrowing vast amounts from German, French and UK banks all above board as both parties chased greater returns. Sadly the apparently concrete the laws of thermodynamics fail when one gains an economics degree.

    Oh my god just noticed Italy owes France a fifth of it's GDP thats running on fumes if ever I saw it
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 05-04-2010 at 16:13.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I am guessing this is government debt though, right? While not merge all the debt into the national bank (for example, Bank of Ireland and Bank of Spain), and where there is interest involved, make the required adjustments, to cancel out the lessers debt.

    As it is the Euro-zone they could even take it a step-further, instead of interlending, they could establish the "Bank of Europe", where all debts get transferred to that. Then like banks in real-life, countries like Germany who did a lot of lending, does this through the "Bank of Europe". This means all the debt is also in the one place and not all over the show. Then these debts are transferred through the nations National Banks.

    Makes sense to me, anyway.
    it is the transfer of risk that is the problem, why should one nation internalise the risk of another by assuming the burden of their debt?

    and are the private creditors will to have their debt restructured?

    and are the national economies willing to effectively print another £200 to act as a guarantee on the debt now owed to private lenders?
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Yeah heard about that stuff Greece prob owes less outright but has less capacity to pay back Ireland owes more but has far greater ability to pay back in the medium to long term. Also we have borrowed a huge ammout on the bond markets to bail all our banks and no doubt thats reflected in the graphic I would imagine the EU/IMF deal is not represented in that graph for Greece yet.

    Couple of things to note our greater investment led to our banks borrowing vast amounts from German, French and UK banks all above board as both parties chased greater returns. Sadly the apparently concrete the laws of thermodynamics fail when one gains an economics degree.
    britain is also pleasingly low on the list of creditors to the flakier mediteraenean nations.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dawn of a new EU - European Conservatives and Reformists Group springs into life

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    it is the transfer of risk that is the problem, why should one nation internalise the risk of another by assuming the burden of their debt?
    Well, they owed money anyway, having that cancelled or reduced is always a good thing, isn't it? All my money is in savings and I have no loans outside of my Student Loan. If it turned out the Student Loan company owed me money, wouldn't it simply be easier just for them to reduce it out of the loan I got from them, which ultimately just means, I pay less on that loan, as ultimately, this reduces the debt already got, it can only be a good thing.

    and are the private creditors will to have their debt restructured?

    and are the national economies willing to effectively print another £200 to act as a guarantee on the debt now owed to private lenders?
    I am presuming this is the governments debt to private lenders (my whole talk is on about the government/states debt). I would say "Don't do it", akin to when a 'very nice man' is willing to offer you a loan.


    I was always taught that "Debt is bad" and being honest, it is bad. Only times debt is justifiable is in those cases where you have to dip into it, such as when you want to buy a house, or perhaps help you through university. If you go into debt because you simply want to buy an xbox360 or go on a pub night out, you need a slap. It is amazing how many people go into debts over things like that, then they cry and whine the 30% APR they now have to pay ontop of the original costs. This is where the concept of "savings" come from. You do your hard-work, then you get your reward.

    As such, if I was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, you would see Britain coming out of debt and getting "savings", which might go into doing investments or perhaps loaning myself. However, Britain would never lend more than it can afford to lose, as such, we would have an amazingly good looking bank balance.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-04-2010 at 16:29.
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