Idea for a hotseat game- Imbalance of Powers

[Askthepizzaguy]

I remember way back in the day (it was a Wednesday, by the way...) I had an idea for the Mongols to take part in a hotseat game... basically it would be all the other nations in the world versus the dreaded Golden Horde, which was player-controlled.

Obviously the Golden Horde under human control seems nearly unstoppable. However, if the other human factions are united in their cause, they should have the force necessary to win. The big issue for them is coordinating all of their attacks against the Mongols together. Each faction might have only one or two stacks of troops that they could afford to spare. If you lose those troops in battle (and you will) then you need to be able to spit out some more and sail back over there and continue the fight.

Certain things would need to happen in order for the game to be fair:

1. The Crusade mechanic renders this entire game meaningless because you could easily overwhelm the horde with stacks of maintenance-free troops being spat out by all nations for 10 turns. You cannot use the crusade function, and if one is called, you cannot join.

2. No taking of settlements with spies opening the gates.

3. "Big Evil" faction only gets to start with one province, but unlimited money and more troops than you can shake a stick at (approximately equal to what the Mongol Horde starts with in the game). The one province handicap means that having all that money is meaningless because you won't be able to begin replacing your troops as fast as the other nations can destroy them, or make their own.

4. "Big Evil" faction might begin with the Volga-Bulgar region, Baghdad, or the Jedda region. Not sure which would be best. I think Volga-Bulgar.

5. Directly gifting territories is not allowed. You may trade 1 province for 1 province at a time. (eliminates easy solve of every nation giving most of their territory to England, who then is already bigger than the Mongols by a factor of 10. The challenge is derived from group planning and coordination.... think of this like the Rebel Alliance versus the Galactic Empire, or many independent civilizations repelling the Borg Collective.)

6. Gifting money is not allowed, not even during province trades or under any other circumstances.

This would take a little time to set up, and I am not entirely sure I have the skills necessary to set it up. I might need some more experienced GM help, maybe even a little modder's help. Some advice on how to make sure it is a fair game would be lovely.

Thoughts/comments?

[phonicsmonkey]

Check out Wrath of the Khan - we're doing this right now.

It works but there are some frustrating elements for the Mongol player. Silvershield, the current Mongol player, will likely have some thoughts on this but from my perspective as part of the 'rebel alliance':

- It is really far too easy for the other factions to use forts to hem in the horde and prevent the Mongols from ever being able to choose their battles. In fact in WotK I don't think the Mongols have ever, so far, been able to fight a decent battle on the battle map. If they bring their siege engines up to the front we just withdraw our troops and build more forts to slow them down. Not sure what you could do about this: ban forts? then the Mongols win easily...make it an autoresolve game? then the mongols are at an inbuilt disadvantage because they are underpowered in autoresolve.

- It's a lonely job being just one against the world. Many of the attractive features of hotseat gaming (diplomacy and RP) are lost if the game is simply you against everyone else - after all, what's the point in talking to the other side? So you might want to think carefully about your VCs to ensure that there is some incentive for members of the Rebel alliance to betray their brothers and join the dark side under the right circumstances; circumstances that the Mongol player is aware of and can work to bring about. I tried and failed to do this with the WotK VCs.

If you browse the WotK thread you'll see several conversations around these issues that you might find useful when thinking about your game.

I think it's a great idea (hence I stole it from you) and I'm sure it can be done well but I wanted to give you the benefit of our experience in trying to do this and not quite succeeding..

[Askthepizzaguy]

Excellent feedback, phonicsmonkey.

Issue with Forts: You're playing BC, which is a game where there isn't much use for navies, especially where the Khaan is located, I believe.

Forts can hem in the mongol horde at choke points in the vanilla map because of rivers and bridges and so on. But, I don't believe the human players would be able to stop the horde from getting to the ocean. Once the horde reaches the Mediterranean Sea, if they are able to make ships, then things get very nasty for the human players.

Navies are harder to stop, unless you have a bunch of shipmaking facilities, and I am certain players would immediately recognize the need for navies against the Mongols here.

Also, it doesn't have to be the Mongols. It could be another faction, relocated there and given a poopload of troops and cash, and their former lands gone rebel. Volga-Bulgar makes a nice starting point since it is far, far away from any heavy trading spots and troop manufacturing centers, and Russia/Turks/Byzantines/Egyptians can delay the Mongols with forts and bear the brunt of the assault as they make their way towards the sea.

Personally I don't like the troops that the Mongols have. I'd prefer it if the Big Bad were someone like England or the HRE.

As for the Lonely Job aspect: I'd probably be willing to take on the job. The main enemy of the game is supposed to provide a challenge to the other players. The fun is more in seeing what they do, and trying your best to make yourself a threat and hold them off for as long as you can.

In my estimation the Big Bad will lose the game, but only with decent play by the other factions. So if it is a relatively unwinnable game, I'd be willing to be the big bad until I am finally slain.

Then, it can become a normal hotseat where the faction who reaches victory conditions first wins. That provides a slight tension among the other players that it may be possible, albeit unlikely, to exploit. If one faction wanted to be selfish and win after the Mongols are defeated, they might ally with them and declare war from the opposite side, where everyone is most vulnerable.

How about those suggestions?

Also, I could picture you or Tristan or any number of other hotseat players decent candidates to play the Big Bad faction. Doesn't have to be me. In fact I think it could be thrilling to play as a middle-european faction against the Big Bad, too. I could go either way.

[phonicsmonkey]

The Teutonic campaign in Kingdoms makes quite a good theatre for this, with the Teutonic order against the rest.

Only problem is I think they are a bit overpowered so you might want to consider modding some strength into the other factions.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The Teutonic campaign in Kingdoms makes quite a good theatre for this, with the Teutonic order against the rest.

Only problem is I think they are a bit overpowered so you might want to consider modding some strength into the other factions.

That map is too small. Given a very large force, there wouldn't be enough time to slow the big bad faction down before they gobble up half of the map.

The big campaign is perfect, because although the Big Bad can begin gobbling up lots of territory right away, there's too much map for them to do it in before the human players can begin picking off a stack of troops here, a stack of troops there, and then the big horde is slowly dispersed as it attempts to own as many territories as possible.

That also allows for the possibility of reconquering lands held by the big horde they aren't defending because they are out attacking.

And if they defend, their attacking force is divided and put on both attack and defensive duty, so they are weaker attackers.

Yeah you need a really big map. Stainless Steel would be perfect.

[phonicsmonkey]

My personal opinion is that Stainless Steel is too slow for hotseats. It just takes ages to do anything.

I haven't tried it, but maybe that Third Age Total War mod might be good for this, with Mordor against everyone else?

[Askthepizzaguy]

My personal opinion is that Stainless Steel is too slow for hotseats. It just takes ages to do anything.

I haven't tried it, but maybe that Third Age Total War mod might be good for this, with Mordor against everyone else?

Perhaps a good old fashioned patched vanilla game would work.

Nice idea with the Third Age, I'll keep it in mind but I think you'd need someone experienced with the game to play the Big Bad faction, and that rules me out.

[Chaotix]

Unfortunately, TATW is also a King Kong mod- and as such it's even slower than Stainless Steel. It's great for single player, but multiplayer? Not so much.

Perhaps if we just had a mini-mod to increase movement speed, we could use either mod, though.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Troop movement speed does need a tweaking. It shouldn't take 3 years to cross from one side of France to the other.

[SilverShield]

all i can say is that its great to be the mongols. might be a personal thing i got going on but i like to be the big bad empire. though ruling the rajputs too and therefore being able to fight an epic two front war is what really makes it exciting
however… i could see it working as u proposed

as for the forts stopping the mongols. it isnt that big of problem actually. without forts blocking the mongols it simply would be too easy. they d just rush it. i for my part am fine with the forts. the siege equipment i possess does help a lot and its actually not as bad as with the rajputs who aint got no siege equipment at all. yea its not that easy to choose ur own battles but having to think about it harder is what actually makes it fun. sometimes a tactical withdrawal in order to pop up somewhere else isnt a bad thing to do.

the biggest dilemma of the mongols in wrath of the khan is that they are in epic debt. on the one had it does make things more exciting on the other hand i neither can build forts nor recruit spies to open forts. not being able to build forts myself isnt that big of a thing since there is siege equipment stationed over the whole map. though sometimes a well placed fort really could help. not being able to recruit spies is a bigger problem. rushing through the defensive line isnt possible at all which almost makes it impossible to deliver a swift attack.

the most important thing i think is this. i dont wanna be disrespectful here since i started as no clue having dude myself however u really have to make sure that the most important factions are ruled by experienced players. not talking of factions like denmark or portugal here the hell with those but if the roman empire isnt seated with a well experienced player this whole thing might be over pretty soon. same is true about hungary or kiev. that is if the mongols start in bulgaria. seljuks and fatimids if they start in the far east. so from my experience u should make sure to get Phonics in. not saying that there aint any good players around i mean there is Barcamartin, Quirl… its just that Phonics is the one i had to deal with the most so far and who really have been giving me a hard time.
now taking the recent drop of players in account u might not be able to fill every important faction with a decent player. therefore u should think about “uniting kingdoms”. it is a bit more fictional but the whole setting would be fictional so it should be fine. so lets say all in a sudden the entire english family died in a fire and due to sudden accidents so the french are taking over england. castille is uniting christian iberia. venice does the same to italy. the germans take control over the crowns of the north. poland and hungary emerge to the great slavic empire. u know what im talking about. one could argue about whether the entire land should be given to one player then so lets say that italy really belongs to venice entirely e.g. or whether one player just should rule several factions. i think that is recommended coz it always leaves the opportunity for others to join in and provides unique units to the scene while keeping it more multicultural altogether.
i think it doesnt matter whether one or two humans are ruling lets say hungary and poland. both ways they share a common sense.
uniting kingdoms under one player however would allow to keep this thing rolling with lets say six or maybe seven players only which makes it faster and less vulnerable to player dropping. i mean i dont think that u or Phonics or one of the other guys being around here for a longer time all in the sudden will stop playing this unless some serious sh happens so the chance to keep it rolling smoothly over a longer period of time should be guaranteed if some kingdoms get united under the banner of a major power..

[_Tristan_]

if you're looking for a player for your big bad faction and think you can't handle it, please keep me in mind... I may have a bit of free-time on my hands soonish...

[G. Septimus]

that is just

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

WHOA

[Askthepizzaguy]

if you're looking for a player for your big bad faction and think you can't handle it, please keep me in mind... I may have a bit of free-time on my hands soonish...

Yes, I remember I originally thought of you in the first place, back about 2 years ago when I first came up with this idea. Oh heck yeah, I'd give it up and put you in. (don't read anything naughty into that statement)

You'd make an excellent Big Bad.

Which mod should it be, and which faction would you prefer?

[_Tristan_]

Whatever suits you... Depends on what/how you want to play... If you want a big map, I'd go for LTC Gold (which resembles Vanilla but much less buggy..) or SS.

As to factions, I'd go for almost any but I'll admit I'd be more at ease with Sicily, France, England or the Mongols/Timurids...

Too bad, the team behind Dominion of the Sword hasn't released it yet... It could make for a very exciting experience...

If you're looking to a smaller map/number of players, any Campaigns of the Kingdoms expansion could be fun (though I can't think of a Big Bad faction in the Crusades unless you place Antioch and Jerusalem under joint command or scratch one and give its territory to the other...)

In the Britannia campaign, you could give a buff to the Norse and unleash them on the Isles (though I saw you already have a Britannia hotseat running, so it may not be quite as fun...)

In the Teutonic Campaign, The Bruders come foremost to being the Big Bad with the Mongols as close seconds, provided the latter are given a buff both in units and King's Purse (and General's Loyalty...)

Anyway, I'll bow to your/our collective wisdom when it comes to selecting both mod and faction, with the purpose of creating the most fun for all involved.


[EDIT] I've also already played the Big Bad Wolf in a few campaigns (Crusades Hotseat 2 as KoJ lost at 1v3, Teutonic in the Teutonic Hotseat won at 1v5 or Norse in the Britannia Hotseat lost at 1v4...) so I know a bit of what is required of me, if you finally decide to give me the role...

And I won't be too aggravated if I lose as long I can give a good fight... I'll fight tooth for tooth... Like an Armenian ( at ATPG)


[EDIT2] Another idea which comes to mind reading Phonics post about Victory Conditions is creating two sets of victory conditions : one public and one secret for each faction.

It would each faction to pursue clear goals to the eyes of the beholder , while all the same trying to attain those secret goals that may require the treason of an ally or the capture of certain provinces of no particular interest to the faction but capital to the opposition...

[phonicsmonkey]

Like an Armenian ( at ATPG)

Remember this?

[_Tristan_]

Remember this?

I remember it all too well

I remember mostly being ganged upon by two of the major powers of BC while playing one of the smallest and giving them a short-lived but very fierce fight...

I had too much of a reputation going against me at the time...