[EB] Any help for beating skullhead?

[Paltmull]

This is hilarious!

Anyway:

he usually sets his phalanx right to mine's (when i'm not using the box) and strangely his medium are defeating my elite's. When i'm trying to protect the flanks his geisatai and medium troops defeat my flank troops( most of the time some heavy swordman and a bit of cavalry). If that happens i already know i can't win. In a last desperate reformation i try to make sure that his troops don't get any more into my flanks. That doesn't work and i let most of my units route, so he doesn't get a heroic victory.

Are your phalanxes set to guard mode? IIRC phalanxes fighting other phalanxes should not be in guard mode, as opposed to when fighting other kinds of troops. And don't order your phalangites to attack. Just move close enough and they will engage by themselves. Please correct me someone if I'm wrong.

[Maion Maroneios]

Short answer to your question: impossible. Strategos Skull has experience. Nothing beats experience.

[Macilrille]

If that was so, swordsmasters would never be replaced as such. Which they are, as those they train overtake them; being trained by and fighting against the best always advances you fastest. And in this case Skully, though undoubtedly a good player, got advice from us as well as training/coaching from Fluvius on how to deal with the Noob Box. If Danos listens to advice and recieve training, he too can do it.


Phalanxes are overpowered, so beating them is difficult. But can be done. Especially using the small tricks of the trade that experienced MPs know, but that new guys, including me, do not.


Danos, you might benefit from looking here.

[Fluvius Camillus]

WHAHAH

This is quite funny, I should charge balloons for tactical advice.

Well??

On a more serious note, when I get more spare time I might help you out, if Skullheadhq doesn't mind of course. I might even school you in MP like I did with Skull. Although Cute Wolf's advice will probably help a lot already.

Edit:@Skullheadhq, straks zit je hele klas toch niet op dit forum he?

~Fluvius

[plutoboyz]

Phalanx?
I would bring horse archer, kata, elephant, and some heavy infantry. use saka.

[Mulceber]

Use the... *looking for Sata or Maion arround* MARIAN ROMANS

May I please quote you on this? PLEEEEAAASSEEEE???? -M

[vartan]

Are your phalanxes set to guard mode? IIRC phalanxes fighting other phalanxes should not be in guard mode, as opposed to when fighting other kinds of troops. And don't order your phalangites to attack. Just move close enough and they will engage by themselves. Please correct me someone if I'm wrong.

I'm not so sure. Phalangites can use guard mode or no guard mode. And none of these units 'auto-engage'. When not on guard mode, they like to steam-roll the enemy, auto-engaging if you haven't told them to attack. On guard mode, they won't engage unless you order them to attack. Still on guard mode, only those units disturbed will be reprimanded. Those in next rows in the phalanx will not come forth to attack. In any case, if you have a pike army versus a Roman or other sword army, you better be playing on the Alex engine because the phalanx bug consistently strikes fear into the pike player. With a bug like that, your non-guard mode phalanxes cannot steam-roll the enemy like it should. Instead, it likes to dance to the side, or even backwards. Phalanx bug: priceless...

If anything, the loser of the game deserves more than the winner.

P.S. Skullhead, I'd like to see you on my battlefield.

[Paltmull]

I'm not so sure. Phalangites can use guard mode or no guard mode. And none of these units 'auto-engage'. When not on guard mode, they like to steam-roll the enemy, auto-engaging if you haven't told them to attack. On guard mode, they won't engage unless you order them to attack. Still on guard mode, only those units disturbed will be reprimanded. Those in next rows in the phalanx will not come forth to attack. In any case, if you have a pike army versus a Roman or other sword army, you better be playing on the Alex engine because the phalanx bug consistently strikes fear into the pike player. With a bug like that, your non-guard mode phalanxes cannot steam-roll the enemy like it should. Instead, it likes to dance to the side, or even backwards. Phalanx bug: priceless...

Uhuh, the guard mode is of course a lot more defensive, and should be used to pin down the enemy while flanking troops do the killing. This works great when fighting non-phalanx- units, since they are very unlikely to break through the phalanx formation. Other phalangites, on the other hand, will damage your phalangites - and I was under the impression that using the defensive guard mode wouldn't be very effective against another more agressive pike unit. But I might be wrong, my phalanx experience is quite limited.

The phalanx bug is a pain of course; but since guard mode works fine against non- phalangites it isn't really a problem, in my opinion.

[vartan]

Uhuh, the guard mode is of course a lot more defensive, and should be used to pin down the enemy while flanking troops do the killing. This works great when fighting non-phalanx- units, since they are very unlikely to break through the phalanx formation. Other phalangites, on the other hand, will damage your phalangites - and I was under the impression that using the defensive guard mode wouldn't be very effective against another more agressive pike unit. But I might be wrong, my phalanx experience is quite limited.

The phalanx bug is a pain of course; but since guard mode works fine against non- phalangites it isn't really a problem, in my opinion.

Against other phalangites, you would require more ranks, less frontage, and guard off, to push. Guard mode sword vs guard mode pike is a problem. Your flanks will be destroyed and you will lose the game if you don't use your pikes offensively. Guard mode pikes do not kill. Enemy does not engage, sits in guard mode in front of your pikes. Nothing happens since neither of you engage each other, except for your losses on the flanks. Simple as that. So best thing to do is pray that when you turn guard off and press the attack, that your game won't suddenly become "Michael Jackson: Total War" due to all the moonwalking you will start to notice. Note: music is not included.

[Hannibal Khan the Great]

So best thing to do is pray that when you turn guard off and press the attack, that your game won't suddenly become "Michael Jackson: Total War" due to all the moonwalking you will start to notice. Note: music is not included.

I feel the need to sig this. Does Vartan approve?

[antisocialmunky]

Actually what you need to do with phalanx vs phalanx is to line up the attacking block head on. Otherwise your unit will start turning or shuffling weairdly because its tries to turn to hit the direct center but the phalangites on the edges can't move forward so the hwole block starts spinning or going backwards.

Its not that unpredictable once you get the technique down.

[vartan]

Actually what you need to do with phalanx vs phalanx is to line up the attacking block head on. Otherwise your unit will start turning or shuffling weairdly because its tries to turn to hit the direct center but the phalangites on the edges can't move forward so the hwole block starts spinning or going backwards.

Its not that unpredictable once you get the technique down.

Not a problem in Alex. If making deeper syntagmata, put gaps in between the blocks, each block aligned with the opposing pike blocks. They will attack the center and won't turn as they are aligned.

[Paltmull]

Against other phalangites, you would require more ranks, less frontage, and guard off, to push.

Then we agree on that one :)

Guard mode sword vs guard mode pike is a problem. Your flanks will be destroyed and you will lose the game if you don't use your pikes offensively. [...]

Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind? Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?

[gamegeek2]

I'd take Carthies over Roma any day - not because I'm a Romaioktonos, but because of three words - Sacred Band Cavalry. Far superior to anything the romans have to offer. Not to mention these:

You have great Elite African units (the pikemen are monsters; the elite infantry are essentially superior legionaries); Iberian Assault Inf and LibyPhoenician Elite Inf to crush other elites with AP secondaries (falcatae and axes, respectively), solid Libyan and LibyPhoenician troops as line infantry, and good African regionals to do ranged work (don't compare to cretans, but Numidian Cavalry are good for dealing with those via javelins)

[Apázlinemjó]

Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind. Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?

On the tournament matches that was the thing what happened with "Hellenistic" players. Cheap phalangites could hold the line without problem, so you could spend your mnai on heavily armoured cavalry and hardcore flank protector troopers and assault infantry.

[vartan]

Really? Isn't the entire point of hammer-anvil tactics to have the center hold the major part of the enemy forces, while attacking them on the flanks and from behind? Because then you can simply save a lot of money by using cheap levy phalangites - the enemy won't break through them anyway - and then spend much more on strong flanking troops; which will result in the enemy's flanks being destroyed. Your phalangites don't really have to do anything, other than holding the enemy, as long as your flanks are strong, 'aight?

But your flanks aren't strong. We're talking human vs human, not computer. There is no time to lose. If you don't take initiative you lose the game. The enemy isn't attacking you from the front, just standing there, so you're not guarding or pinning anything. You're just being wasted on the flanks and your horses are being matched and their every move is being watched. Reserves of the enemy are on their toes. You need to push and kill. Only way to realize this? Online battle.

[Scattered]

Long time lurker first time poster here.

I've played multi player quite a bit and I think I may be able to offer some valuable advice.

First of all because the mod focus's on historical accuracy all units/factions won't be equally balanced and equally useful which is perhaps the main problem with competitive EB multi payer. If you want to have the best most effective army possible your army composition will involve a lot of spam which to be honest stifles game play diversity a bit. I personally think the best multi payer experience is one where players invent cool little scenarios and innovative house rules.

So I watched the replay and the first thing I noticed (naturally) was unit composition which I believe was skewed heavily in the favor of the Carthaginian player for a number of reasons.

1: Elite African Pikemen I would consider arguably the best pikemen in the game in terms of cost effectiveness, significantly better than medium pikes for 50% increased cost. Also the 4k elite pikemen of the successor factions though powerful are simply too expensive to be worth it, but then at 50k this might not be such a big deal.

2: 3x Hellenic Spearmen vs 3x Iberian assault infantry, 2x Liby-Phoenician Heavy Infantry, 1x Greek Hoplites and 2x naked fanatics is a no brainer. Just the 3 assault infantry alone adds significant synergy to a phalanx army where as in this context the Hellenic spearman's only worthwhile use would be as a cavalry screen. The heavier Hellenic Hoplites in my opinion are better suited to guarding the flanks and filling the gaps of your phalanx line.

3: 3 units of Hellenic skirmisher cavalry is a complete waste against such a heavily armored army, given the presence of Thracian Light cavalry as an extra to the 3 companians Macedonia had only a slight edge in the cavalry department though not nearly enough to redress the imbalance in infantry. Basically it might as well of been 17 units vs 20 in favor of Carthage.

Also even though the archer strength was equal I question their cost effectiveness, with so many phalanx's and other armored troops around I probably would of only bothered with 1 or maybe no ranged units in favor of some medium infantry.

Tactics

Both players made a lot of mistakes, not that I am implying I would be any better (playing is different from theory). However overall I think the loss can be attributed to the fighting on the left flank (Macedon's), even if the Macedonian army had won the phalanx combat I still think Carthage would of won. Frontal charges on infantry is not a bad idea but a sustained melee against spearmen is, withdrawing right after a charge is essential, hit and run tactics is what makes charge cavalry worth the cost of deploying them. That attack alone pretty much reduced the Macedonians cavalry strength by a third with minimal losses to the Carthaginians. Afterward a unit of Companion's cops a full charge from 1 maybe 2 units of Iberian heavy cav, then finally the rest of Companion's is surrounded and routed after another ineffective charge. Basically the Macedonians were out manned and out microed on the left flank allowing Carthage to surround and steamroll to victory.

I wont go too much into the corrections because much of it is obvious from the critique above but I will say that the Macedonians suffered from a lack of assault infantry which could of been used to great effect on the right flank. Agrians or Thracian peltasts would of been and excellent choice.

As far as phalanx usage is concerned, it is pretty subtle and complicated and I am not too sure on the best way to use them so I would take Vartan's advice where that is concerned. What I do know is the formations need to be deeper (5 or 6 ranks) because not only does this increase damage over a smaller area but phalanx's are also very robust when surrounded, you have a large (relatively) window of opportunity to save them before they rout. This is also why ap troops are very important against phalanx's, I have won battles against roman opponents where my entire line was surrounded for 5 minutes by legionnaire's, because their weapons weren't ap I had plenty of time to finish the cavalry engagement and save my line with Alexandrian style charges for an overwhelming victory. I will admit this may be a bit imbalanced.

I would also like to say that even though there are quite a few underwhelming units in the game there is only one unit (that I've noticed) that I think is particularly overpowered which is pretty impressive considering the amount of units in the game. This unit is the Thracian peltast it is cheap, skirmisher, high damage javelins, well armored, high stamina, nice shield and a high lethality ap falx secondary. In short the unit has no weaknesses and is effective against every unit type in the game.

Sorry for the long winded essay but I thought I'd make an effort considering it was my first post and all.

Note: I stuck with English naming for clarity.

[Paltmull]

But your flanks aren't strong. We're talking human vs human, not computer. There is no time to lose. If you don't take initiative you lose the game. The enemy isn't attacking you from the front, just standing there, so you're not guarding or pinning anything. You're just being wasted on the flanks and your horses are being matched and their every move is being watched. Reserves of the enemy are on their toes. You need to push and kill. Only way to realize this? Online battle.

Ah, whatever. I haven't played MP in years, so you probably know better than I do. Anyway, my original point had nothing to do with this. It was about not using guard mode when fighting phalangites with phalangites.