Changing all unit HP 1--> 2?

[Intranetusa]

Hi there,
Do you think it would be a good idea to do this:

Change all regular unit HPs from 1 to 2, and change the Gaestate HP from 2 to 3 (or any unit with 2 hp to 3 hp).

Increase cavalry unit HP to either 2 or 3, proportional to the infantry

Increase chariot HP proportionally, and elephants as well.

This way, I'm thinking I can still have the Gaestate as an uber unit, but they would no longer be the unrealistically crazy unarmored unit that chews through 3 of my best armored units? (I realize they can easily be taken out via missiles to the back, or cavalry charge, but I just wanted them to be more "killable" to regular infantry)

This way, Gaestate only has 50% more HP than regular infantry, instead of having double their HP.

I know I might have to double all attack values or lethality as well...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

Missiles would become useless...

[MButcher]

I played that way for a while, and I agree with Brave Brave Sir Robin. Horse archers and other missile units are dramatically reduced in effectiveness. They're not unplayable, just less effective.

On the other hand, infantry battles play out in what seems to be a more realistic way. Units don't take many casualties until they route. Gaesatae and elephants remain about the same, with very little difference in strength.

[Zarax]

Cavalry effectiveness is reduced as well though.

[Aper]

The idea has its merit, but balancing the whole thing will be a Royal Pain in the Ass.

Anyway, I think the moddable "lethality" of the RTW EDU make possible realistic battles without raising the HPs, while the M2TW engine, having the "lethality" locked on 100% (1 hit = 1 kill) is more problematic: even in the "Real Combat" mod, that on the paper seems very good, casualties for winners are usually unrealistically high.

So, I think a mod like this is more desiderable for M2TW rather than for RTW.

[Cute Wolf]

nah, 2 HP compared for 1 (of most units), are good way to give the "Skill Gap" between them, as 2 HP units could be expected to charge against missile storms, but 1 HP unit can't....

if you want to made EB in 2 HP system, first, double the lethality of melee weapons, and second, increase arrow projectile damage by 2, increase sling projectile damage by 1, and increase javelin damage by 7 (javelins is supposed to better close range killer - too low and you'd found your akontistai become pretty useless)

OH: and give archers and horse archers more ammo too

[Intranetusa]

I played that way for a while, and I agree with Brave Brave Sir Robin. Horse archers and other missile units are dramatically reduced in effectiveness. They're not unplayable, just less effective.

On the other hand, infantry battles play out in what seems to be a more realistic way. Units don't take many casualties until they route. Gaesatae and elephants remain about the same, with very little difference in strength.

Yeh, but if I double the attack of missile values, it should cancel out right?

I once played around with missile values, and when I set them to 20 or 30, they virtually owned everyone - even post-Marian Roman testudos. They also killed elephants in seconds.


I was thinking that since I doubled the HP, I'll just double the attack for every unit. I'm not going to bother dealing with doubling the lethality or missile ammo since that'll be more complicated than I'd like.

I think merely increasing the attack by a lot (without increasing the lethality) should be enough to balance out doubling HPs right?

The idea has its merit, but balancing the whole thing will be a Royal Pain in the Ass.

Anyway, I think the moddable "lethality" of the RTW EDU make possible realistic battles without raising the HPs, while the M2TW engine, having the "lethality" locked on 100% (1 hit = 1 kill) is more problematic: even in the "Real Combat" mod, that on the paper seems very good, casualties for winners are usually unrealistically high.

So, I think a mod like this is more desiderable for M2TW rather than for RTW.

Well, my main issue is how Gaestate are so much superior to even elite units since they never die, and how chariots die so fast (even when I'm running them through and not engaging in melee). And how even elite cavalry will die to mediocre non-spearmen infantry if engaged in melee since they both have 1 HP.

Raising regular troops HPs to 2 and cavalry to say 3 will make it even out better, while not giving them any significant bonuses "relative" to other troop types.

[Cute Wolf]

you can't kill gaesatae?

use some sphendenotai (with chevron is better), run behind them, made em fought a high defense melee unit, and pelt them with stone from behind ==> EPIC WIN

[Intranetusa]

you can't kill gaesatae?

use some sphendenotai (with chevron is better), run behind them, made em fought a high defense melee unit, and pelt them with stone from behind ==> EPIC WIN

No, I am able to kill gaestate easily if I use tactics. However, I want to play the role of a typical Roman general - nothing but attack attack attack! This makes it more fun, more challenging, and when I take heavy losses, it limits my expansion rate.

I just don't want to wait half an hour (even on triple speed) for my 10 principes/triaris to kill 2 units of gaestate blocking the city gate so the rest of my forces can bum-rush the center...

And it's annoying how cavalry dies so easily against medicore troops - I want to use my medium cavalry (without good charge bonuses) to at least kill archers, and not have them get mauled in melee combat.

[antisocialmunky]

Every unit would tire out and get demolished by 2HP reserve troops.

[Zarax]

2HP makes cavalry even weaker as it does for missile troops.
I'd advise against it.

[Intranetusa]

Ok, I decided to not change all 1hp to 2hp since it would be a complete pain having to change nearly every attack value to compensate.

I decided to just lower the Gaestate's HP to 1, and raise its defense skill by 3 to 18, and increased its first attack value by 1 (stat_sec_14, 12 instead of stat_sec_13, 12). I'm not sure what the 2nd value is, so I just left it alone.

Also raised all elephant hp by 1 (3->4, 4->5) and all chariot HP to 1 from 2 to 3.
And decreased all long_pike and phalanx sarissa unit's shield values to 4 to make them have the same missile resistance as units with larger shields, and increased all long_pike and phalanx sarissa units by a defense value of 1.

Currently I'm using TW_fanatic's hoplite tweak, so all classical hoplites have lowered armor/killing value but the short_pike attribute and a shield value of 6. I lowered the shield to 5, and increased the defense by 1. So it's slightly weaker while being more vulnerable, but still very resistant to missiles.

Any comments/suggestions?

[Intranetusa]

So far,
1 unit of Gaestate (61, large size) vs 1 unit of post-Marian cohort (103, large size), the Gaestate wins with 16 troops left.

Two volleys of pila killed about 15 Gaestate at the start while Gaestate pila only killed 1 of the enemy. I guess because the Roman pila were AP and Gaestate pila were not?
The Gaestate decimated the cohort at close quarters, but the casualty rate was a bit high considering the Gaestate costs 50% more.

Nvm, the 2nd value is the charge attack value.

I'm going to beef up the Gaestate's attack and defense some more and see if they fare better.


EDIT:

Changed all short_pike classical phalanx to .12 lethality. I think I'm going to remove all 2ndary sword weapons for classical hoplites if their spear is 17 and sword is 13-14 (if both have only .13 lethality, there's not much difference) so I can add short pike attributes to them.

ie. Now Sacred Band hoplites fight like hoplite units with only the spear...

With the Gaesatate attack value at 15, they beat the Praetorian cohorts. With their attack value at 14, they lose to Praetorians...





2nd Edit/Update:
At attack 14, defense 18, and hp at 1, Naked Fanatics work perfectly. They are about as strong as when they had 2 hp, 15 def, and 13 attack - but now they are much more vulnerable to missiles and from behind. Overall, they die faster but also kill faster.
Chariots at 3HP also work great - they are more resistant to missiles and now they don't die by the dozen when you try to run them through an infantry line to break up formations... They still die quickly if they get stuck in melee with infantry of course, but overall they're more sturdy.
=)

[Julianus]

I am trying to make battles go even slower, mainly by reducing killing rate, you should not be able to kill organized troops so quickly anyway. When they route, that's another story of course. But what is the easiest and most convenient way to achieve this? I don't want to reduce attack value of every unit after all, maybe I could reduce lethality of weapons?

[Qvintvs]

Increasing morale does quite a lot to make combats last longer.

Or creating a trigger that gives all generals a trait that increases morale of all units by quite a large margin - and this one works, or at least the penalties work, as i have learned a very painful lesson in BI trying to use Gratianus the lily-livered with his archer bodyguard, as a commander.


But since you want to achieve another thing....i do not think decreasing lethality would not be a good idea. Better stick with decreasing attack and defense. If you edit lethality, you will find archers not even taking casualties from cavalry charges.

[Cute Wolf]

btw, I think Gaesatae are supposed to be capable of ripping roman pila that stuck on him and thrown them back, made them only had one soul seems "ahistorical"

[Intranetusa]

btw, I think Gaesatae are supposed to be capable of ripping roman pila that stuck on him and thrown them back, made them only had one soul seems "ahistorical"

lol, well, two volleys of pilum (200 or so pila from 100 troops of a first cohort) only killed about 10-15 of my Gaesatate. The Gaesatate still ended up winning by shredding the 1st cohort in melee. By decreasing hp and increasing attack/defense, the Gaesatate aren't annoying as hell to fight anymore, but still a beastly unit that shreds others in melee. ;)

[Intranetusa]

Another idea - cavalry fares poorly in melee mostly because of their size right? Because the horse + rider unit is so big, 1 cavalry unit has to fight like 3-4 infantry units at once when engaged in melee.

Do you thinking doubling their HP, and lowering their defense & armor would make them more effective at melee while keeping them not overpowered like in RTW vanilla?

Actually, what would happen if I gave cavalry unit's a mount value of 1 along with the unit HP of 1, instead of the unit HP being 2? Would that just mean they die twice as fast...or twice as slow?

Furthermore, are sarissa phalanx shield values doubled while in sarissa mode? Meaning the current shield value of 5 for all sarissa units becomes 10 shield points in sarissa phalanx mode?

[Ludens]

Moving this to the submod forum...

[Cute Wolf]

2 HP cavalry are really really evil..... I've tested that, because that way, you could done rinse and repeat tactics EXTREMELY EASY, especially if they have LANCE

if you want 2 HP cavalry, meat grinder type like cuirassiers or sword wielding cavalry (that low in armour) is the best to have...

* (but don't blame me if you found some in nusantara TW, yep, there is some really evil cavalry present)

[ChingizLink]

nah, 2 HP compared for 1 (of most units), are good way to give the "Skill Gap" between them, as 2 HP units could be expected to charge against missile storms, but 1 HP unit can't....

if you want to made EB in 2 HP system, first, double the lethality of melee weapons, and second, increase arrow projectile damage by 2, increase sling projectile damage by 1, and increase javelin damage by 7 (javelins is supposed to better close range killer - too low and you'd found your akontistai become pretty useless)

OH: and give archers and horse archers more ammo too

I agree with your advice, but I would have to say that sling projectiles should be given a bit more credit, and that arrows should do more damage--maybe 2x as much (unless "arrow projectile damage" is some kind of attribute that I'm not aware of...btw, I don't mean that as a sarcastic/condescending comment: I SERIOUSLY DON'T KNOW IF that is an attribute like ap or launches!)

I love to play with Parthia and similar factions/units, so when I saw AQDs RTR mod (which I love BTW) it actully made me shop around for Alexander just to play it.

I learned the pitfalls of givng all units 3HP...can you say, "Oh dear, my half stack HA based army is out of arrows"? I had to (for the sake of my sanity...) edit the export.descr.edu so that all but the baddest of the bad (Gaesatae, Spartan hoplites, cataphracts, sacred band infantry/cavalry, some -- but not all -- Hellenistic "Agema" type units, that one German heavy cavalry unit that's listed in the medium category in RTR, your notable and relatively-to-totally legendary command units, etc) had 1HP, while generals and the aforementioned reputable units have 2HP, and a few have 3HP. THEN it was a great looking, eastern faction-based mod that was quite fun and reasonably balanced.

Hey, I love a long, micromanaged battle as much as the next historical RTS fan, but I like variety too!

[Ludens]

Hello ChingizLink, welcome to EB an to the .Org!